The Battle of Tannenberg / Grunwald / Žalgiris 1410

[Zawisza_Czarny]

Part 2:
@Festine
To the relations between the poles and lithuanians:

-Aldona of Lithuania:
Aldona married Casimir III of Poland, when he was 15 or 16 years old. The bride was probably of about the same age. The marriage took place on 30 April or 16 October 1325 and was a purely political maneuver to strengthen the first Polish–Lithuanian coalition against the Teutonic Knights. Casimir was seeking allies in the dispute over Pomerania with the Order. Gediminas had just undertaken an unsuccessful attempt to Christianize Lithuania. Casimir and Gediminas made and agremment, that woluld lead to the Union of Krewo. The details of the agreement are not known. But it is known that Gediminas released all Polish captives around 25,000 who returned then to Poland. The importance of the marriage was attested by the fact that Władysław abandoned his earlier plans to marry his son to Jutta of Bohemia. The alliance was put into effect, when joint Polish-Lithuanian forces organized an attack against the Margraviate of Brandenburg in 1326. There is no evidence of fighting between Poland and Lithuania while Aldona was alive.

-Jogaila:
Jogaila lived (1351/1363-1434), Grand Duke of Lithuania (1377-1434), Kind of Poland (Jatiwiga) (1386-1399) and King of Poland (alone) (1399-1434).
In 1384, Jogaila explored the option, presented by the Grand Duchy of Moscow and brokered by his Orthodox mother Uliana of Tver: converting to Orthodoxy and marrying Sophia, daughter of Dmitry Donskoy. In the eyes of Catholics, Orthodoxy was not any better than paganism. Therefore such conversion would not protect from the Teutonic attacks. A third option, presented by Polish nobles, avoided major pitfalls of the Teutonic or Muscovite proposals.

-Jatwiga:
Jatwiga (1373/4 1399) Was supposed to mary William of Austria. In 1385 he came to Kraków to consumate the marrige, but the polish nobles have thrown him out of Kraków (perhaps even Wawel) and expelled him from Poland (Against the will of Jatwiga). In the same year they have signed the Union of Krewo. Nobles from Lesser Poland, including Spytek of Melsztyn, Jan of Tarnów, Jan Tęczyński, proposed the Jadwiga married Jogaila, Grand Duke of Lithuania.
Due to negative propaganda by William of Austria and the Teutonic Knights, the marriage was not confirmed by Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), only Pope Boniface IX (1389–1404) declared it legitimate.

-Union of Crewno
http://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Unio_in_Krew
http://polishkingdom.co.uk/unionkreva.html

Some Points that Jogaila agreed to uphold:

1. Christianizing Lithuania: conversion of pagan Jogaila, Lithuanian nobles and all pagan Lithuanians to Roman Catholicism
2. Paying compensation of 200,000 florins to William, Duke of Austria for the termination of the engagement between Jadwiga and William
3. Returning of all lands lost in wars by Poland. This in particular referred to territories in Red Ruthenia that Louis I of Hungary attached to the Kingdom of Hungary.
4. Releasing of all Christian war prisoners held by the Lithuanians
5. Attaching (Latin: applicare) of Lithuanian and Ruthenian lands to the Crown of Poland

Between 1340 - 1392 raged the ‘Galicia–Volhynia’ war:
1340-1344 Poland, Golden Horde and Lithuania fought against each other about this region. But in 1344 a peace treaty was made.
1348-1366 In this time there was then war then peace then war. Casimir was successful in driving the Lithuanians back.
1370-1382 Same again, a war.

Jogailas wars to constitute his rulership:
1381-1384 Lithanian civil war.
1389-1392 Lituanian civil war.

So yes i will not dispute the fact that poland was very often in war with Lithuania, and that only ended with the coronation of Jogaila. But during 1340 and 1389 Poland has at least doubled its size, and managed to convert Lithuania to catholicism.
But did the wars devastate this lands that are east of Vistula? I don’t know. I believe only one historians and archaeologists for this area can answer this. But since many of this lands belonged previously to the Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia inhabitated by the Ruthnians (east slavic / orthodox), and that they are still living there. It is therefore highly doubtful, that the previous living people there were killed on mass, leaving this lands empty for a resettlement. It is also true that the many Poles were living in this areas, till 1945, but it could be so that they were simply polonized, like the lithuanians around Vilnus. That could be the reason, why so many poles have the R1a1 Z280 genes (east slavic).

To the relations between the poles and teutonic knights?

1308 Gdańsk slaughter (rzeź Gdańska) by the teutonic knights. I do not insist on the 10.000 dead, but more around 1000-3000. And i also think that there ware a german minority, before the slaughter. But the polish overestimate and the german underestimate the numbers of victims.
The possession of Danzig and Pomerelia by the Teutonic Order was questioned consistently by the Polish kings Władysław I and Casimir the Great in legal suits in the papal court in 1320 and 1333. Both times, as well as in 1339, the Teutonic Knights were ordered by the Pope to return Pomerelia (east pommern) and other lands back to Poland, but did not comply. Because Mestwin II refers in 1271 to the danzig people with: “burgensibus theutonicis fidelibus” we can surely state that the populus of Danzig had at least a large part of germans.

1326–32 Polish–Teutonic War over the east pommern. After that 66 years of peace.

End of Part 2.

[Zawisza_Czarny]

Part 3. Final part.

@Festine
Now back to me and the superb ‘propaganda’ conducted by Jogaila against the Teutonic Knights. Do i need a ‘propaganda’ to convince me about the bad habits of the Teutonic Knights?
First. We know the reports by the crusade guests, where they state exactly how many, where, who and how has been killed.
Second. We have the numbers and the ‘quite good’ estimations, about the inhabitants in a certain region, in a certain time.
Third. We have the knowledge about the rites or requirements to become a Knight of the Teutonic Knights.
Fourth. We have the written accounts, reports by chronicles about the crusades and the uprisings in prussia.
Everything else is to evaluate this thing, one by one, to use some logic and to count this things together.
I don’t need Jogaila to tell me how the Teutonic Knight were. I recognize the people by their deeds.

The Prussians survived the for over 2 thousand years in this region. They survived the germanic ‘Völkerwanderung’, the Huns ,the slavic expansion and even the viking raids. They even survived the for two and half centuries of polish attacks on them. But they did not survive the massacres, the damage and the ‘ostkolonisation’ committed by the Teutonic Knights.
The surviving ‘Baltic’ people, are the Lithuanians and the Latvians, and both of them celebrate the unity against the Teutonic Knights, the destruction of the Teutonic Knights and the expelling of the germans from their lands.
Perhaps if it wasn’t for the union between poland and lithuania, maybe there would be no Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Litauen, Latvia, Estland, Belarus and Israel.
My opinion about Jogaila and Vytautas is clear, they may not have been the virtues in persona, but they were strong and smart Dukes and Kings, who have done the necessary for the survival of their people, culture and language. And therefore i respect them.

End of Part 3.

[Dushin]

This thread reeks of HERESY!

[j_kolosovskis]

Latvian here. I agree with @Zawisza_Czarny about having no shame or pity for the Teutonic Order. They caused more pain to latvian and estonian people than nazis or the soviets. Almost 600 years of serfdom/slavery under their rule (later as a part of Livonian Order) leaves them with no excuse in my eyes.
One of the first things Latvia did when it was formed as a country was to take the lands back from the german lords that have held them undisturbed since early 14th century.
You will also see that partly because of this, latvian people are not very religious, me included

[festine]

What you do here is quite common misunderstanding - attempt to judge people based on your modern conscience. This is made so often …
I do not oppose the fact that Teutonic brothers were ruthless killers. They indeed were. But like most of people of that time. Good example is that Polish knights were very often 'guests of the Order" on the ‘raizes’ killing pagans with same zeal as anyone. You also mistake results of Jogaila ( with help of some Polish nobles ) propaganda with common conscience of Polish nobility. After the war Jogaila was sending emissaries to Rome that were trying to change Vatican’s position against pagans - that they are not mere animals that can be slaughtered if they won’t convert. Because this was the way most Christians also in Poland were thinking at that time. And this is why most Polish nobles were not really hating Order or anything. And that’s where comes pre-war Jogailo’s propaganda. To convince them that it is not wrong to defend against holy Order. That this Order is in fact so evil that they should defend catholic state against not-so-holy brothers.
Your calculation of Prussian population is also a bit off - it does not says anything about any massacres or anything that you suggested in previous post. First of all it is hardly possible that such rather primitive population would double in volume while side by side Lithuanians that were in a lot better situation ( not repressed and safe from most sides ) managed to double only within 100 years in XIV century. And while Prussians were enslaved, converted and repressed I would consider that many of them just fled to neighboring states and lots of them also got converted and started using German as they main language - at that time it was enough to consider them German. I cannot see here anything really that dramatic considering situation was already bad - to compare population of Sorbs from the moment of fall of the Berlin Wall (when they requested some autonomy) till about 2010 decreased also twice (from 40 to 20 k as i recollect) while no one was massacred or anything. This is just a result of pure passive “de-ethnification”.
As for Jogaila - there is no argument about him being smart. But for sure reasoning behind his workings might be different - first of all his primary concern was Lithuania that was his family state and Poland was rather a way to achieve his goals - the Great War with Order is good example - Poland managed to eventually regain some land ( but as i recollect this was not a direct result of the war itself but later diplomacy ) but most important gain was securing Samogitia. Whole propaganda - both internal pre-war and the one in Rome after the war also shows his values. He had though very good school of life with so many brothers competing for the position of arch-duke of Lithuania in a ways that goes well beyond the understanding of brotherly rivalry (altogether with ideas like one of them siding with Teutonic Order against other brothers ).
As for right bank of Vistual river I meant this part that was in direct contact with actual Lithuania - eastern Mazovia mostly. In fact it was resettled after the Great War. For the southern parts it was actually quite safe. And Ruthenian part … I simply prefer not to dig in it as it is still controversial topic I guess and not a scope of what we talk about.
I understand historical sentiments but lay it off if we want to have anything quite true to the facts of the past and this game is all about it. What we have here are simple facts:

• Poland and Chechs were tied at that time very closely ( your hero Zawisza is great example - while he fought for Poland most of his life he spent serving king Sigismund Luxembourg of Chechs )
• Chechs took important part in biggest battle of Middle Ages - battle of Grunwald - and it seems most of them and by heart rather they were on Polish-Lithuanian side
• Diplomacy between Poland and king Sigismund Luxembourg of Chechs was one of primary concern of Poland both after the war but also in times before it.
• Grunwald battle with its size and the fact that most important European knights took part in it is hard to miss in a game happening in around this time. It is excellent background and a chance to show military events of the greatest size.
• If we could get implemented Polish knights singing the ‘Mother of God’ song before the fight it would probably made many people quite impressed.
  Worth mentioning is that while I am sure Polish and Chech still can quite understand each another as being closest relative at the beginning of XV century it was probably even easier for them.