The Battle of Tannenberg / Grunwald / Žalgiris 1410

Story & Setting
#1

I started this thread to give people with no knowledge of this battle the necessary background, because this battle has been confirmed that it might appear in Kingdom Come: Deliverence. The difficulty is the correct depiction of this medieval battle, that influenced like no other a certain small part of this world, and that has become more and more of a national legend for some countries.

To include this battle in ‘Kingdom Come: Deliverance’ has also a certain reason. This Reason is that this battle, that has been fought between the Orden of the Teutonic Knights (Orden der Brüder vom Deutschen Haus St. Mariens in Jerusalem) and the Polish-Lithuanian alliance / union under Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło)[1], is also a quite interessting part of the Bohemian Kingdoms history. This is due to different political facts, but mostly because of the composition of the army of the personal union under Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło).
This unified army size of banners is according to Jan Długosz composed of the 50 polish banners containing the 3 czechian and 40 lithuanian banners containing the 3 ruthenians. But like all writen accounts that predated Jan Długosz (1415 - 1480), this has to be taken under pretext that flaws could be included. Also it seems that Jan Długosz is not the most reliable source[2].
But the important part for Kingdom Come: Deliverence and the czech history is the participation of the bohemian and moravian mercenaries, which made up to 3 Banners of the polish Assembly containing up to 3000 men from this region:

  1. Banner of St George commanded by Jan Sokol of Lamberk, assisted by Zbyslake.
  2. Under the Personal Banner ( Benešovici ) of Jan of Jičín Odrowaz
  3. Under the Personal Banner ( Strzegomia ) of Gniewosz of Dalewice the Steward of the Crown, castellan of Sandomiez and starost of Lwów.

For the coming Three Acts of Kingdom Come, which seem to span the time from 1403 to the times of the Hussites wars, one czechian hero that participated in this battle, seems to be the most important person. This man was Jan Žižka z Trocnova or z Kalicha, that has changed by his military genius the Bohemian Kingdom. This great military commander, is one of seven military leaders that have never lost a battle.
Some sources make a claim, that even he was in charge of one banner, which can be not verified. But this claims could be quite possible, because Jan Sokol was one of Jogaila’s personal bodyguards, therefore he was not the Leader of the St George banner in the battle. But also because of the friendship between Jan Sokol and Jan Žižka, it is also quite possible that the both men were together in the King’s banner. Jan Długosz mentions the czechian knight Jan Sarnowski in connection to the St Georg banner as their Chorąży / Praporčík ( Fähnrich, Fenrik), and his decisive role in the St George banner.

-In the next post i will try to show the true value of the bohemian mercenary forces and that of the smolensk banner, for the outcome of the battle. By showing the character of the two armies and the czechian and the smolensk position on the battlefield.
-Further we need to investigate the major personas of Jan Sokol ( hawk / falcon ) z Lamberka, Jan Žižka, King Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiełło), the Grand Duke of Lithuania Vytautas the Great and the Grandmaster Ulrich von Jungingen. It would be great if this two personas of Jan Sokol z Lamberka and Jan Žižka, would be closer depicted, by a czechish person.
-If the KCD has a deeper desire to show the life in a war camp, or to portray more persons involved in this battle, then naturally we need several other. Nevertheless I will portray the Polish legendary Knight, the Black Knight of Central Europe named Zawisza Czarny z Garbowa.
-Further we can show, some interesting moments of this eventful day of 15.07.1410, that could be witnessed and / or be even played by the player.

Naturally it would be nice, to have here an elaborate and civilized discussion about this battle and the involved persons. And should be there a disagreement about a certain point so should it be solved, by giving sources for a certain position and smart argumentation.

[1]
It is very diffuclt to classify the relationship between this two countries. But the statuts of the relationship has been well defined in the Union of Krewo (Unia w Krewie, Krėvos sutartis, Krėvos unija) or Act of Krėva in the year of 1385. But due to the death Jadwiga of Poland the Pact of Vilnius and Radom (Unia wileńsko-radomska, Vilniaus-Radomo sutartis) has been made in 1401.

[2]
One example was the wrong description of Grunwald instead of Grünfelde near Tannenberg, but this can be attributed due to the Kings spelling of Grunenvelt. Which can be intepreted both ways.
He attributes several banners wrongly to the Polish army and not to the Lithuanina by also using the wrong heraldry. But also he does not mention the return of the Lithuanians to the battlefield.

4 Likes
Will we be be fighting Teutonic Knights?
If act 2/3 features Teutonic knights, will the battle of Grunwald be present and will Malbork castle be in the game?
#2

A military leader that never lost a battle (and was virtually blind at the end)

Reading about the Hussite war was great and I recommend it to everyone.

#3

where was this confirmed? please don’t spread rumors.

#4

No i would not allow myself to make such a joke or to spread rumors without a certain background. Hey every Pole would hunt me down for such an empty rumor. :wink:
I asked MadSmejki in the thread ‘Will Anti-Semitism Be Addressed?’ if we will meet Zawisza Czarny because of his connection to the Jan Hus trial and the first Crusade in 1420 against the Hussites.
He answered: "Well it’s been kinda confirmed that Battle of Grunwald might appear in the game and Zawisz took part in it.So at least in this part he might appear."
Then i asked him:
"Other thing i wanted to ask is, because ‘The Battle of Grunwald’ is confirmed as you have mentioned. Can i or should i open a thread where i could elaborate the Czechian participation in the battle or would i spoiler to much? Example: Jan Žižka z Trocnova, Jan Sokol z Lamberka."
His answer was: “Of course you can write about and elaborate on historical events.”

For an other hint look close at the Kickstarter video, especially at the battle scenes.
Look very close at the banners and the enemy knights.

But because this is very indirect, i think that they want to reserve themselves the possibility to cut it out, in the worst case. And we should not forget that a very large portion of the backers are germans. That is why i have to admit that it might be a controversial topic or content in the game. (I have no problem to play both sides, in every WWII game that i have, i play always ‘Das dritte Reich’ and not the others.) That is also a reason why i asked in the second place, if i could and should elaborate on this topic. But this is a very important event for the ‘wild falcon’ and his ‘one eyed’ disciple and friend and the bohemian history.

#5

in our AMA on reddit

#6

@MadSmejki
I have just read the AMA on Reddit. And i have a request to the Warhorse studios: Please do not end your story with the battle of Grunwald.
Should you be financially successful. Please continue on with this saga to at least the death of Jan Žižka. In worst case i would say skip this battle but portray the fight of the Hussites against the crusaders. Should it be even more financially successful, then portray the fourth crusade and the support of the polish nobles for the Hussites and the persona of Sigismund Korybut and Prokop Veliký.

To all who have read my previous post:
Next Sunday i will post the part of my elaboration, where the participating armies are depicted and the battle itself. Naturally with the main emphasis on the czechian forces, position and actions. But because of the additonal required information, i have to split this post, perhaps into two parts. So it could be that i have to post the second part, a week later.

#7

So Grunwald is in 1410 and according to the Kickstarter page the story is set in 1403. From the amount of Teutons in the trailers I first assumed that Grunwald was in act one because why else would they have so much content for it already. But now I realized the first act probably won’t cover 7 years but if the Game where to go at that speed their would be time enough for Hussite Wars. From what I have read so far though I don’t think that’s the plan. Maybe the Henry storyline ends with Grunwald and a new Trilogy will be started for the Hussite Wars. Personally I think it’s better if they take there time to tell the story and don’t rush from one action to the next.

I live in Vienna where the ‘German Order’ (successor organization of Teutonic Knights) has there Head quarters. Obviously I can’t speak for all Austrians/Germans but I can imagine that south Germans wouldn’t identify that much with the Teutons because there Prussians. Everyone not very religious probably won’t sympathize with them because there Crusaders. Protestants might see them as a catholic evil. And of course the Hole ‘Ostkolonisation’ issue connects them to the Nazis making them suspicious to all who aren’t either Nationalists or extremely Conservative. Personally I like that the Teutons are being represented (but I choose to play Lithuanians in every game) and I can imagine that just acknowledging a German present will be more than enough for most Germans.

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#8

@THIOMAY
I agree and hope that your previous post it true.
I have watched the Kickstarter ‘trailer’ several times, but i did not really paid attention to the battlefield, because i looked more at other things in the ‘trailer’. Therefore i never assumed that Grunwald would be in any of the three Acts. Only after i heard it from MadSmejki, i took a closer look, at the banners and knights.
Under ‘my terms’ can Warhorse make at least 9 Acts out of this (i will buy them all), naturally only under the condition that KCD is financially successful. I always hope that very few people identify with the Teutonic Knights, like with the ones from 1932 - 1945, because they both were murderers, even of Women and Children.
Their cruelty (Teutonic Order) exceed anything this region had known before (ok Mongols were also not funny), and that is not only against pagans but also catholics.
Against them were the Vikings (Norsemen) ‘ChorKnaben’ with a lot of Humor and they were even good guests, besides the Ax in ones Head. But ok who is perfect anyway?
There have been Grandmasters of the Teutonic Knights who wanted to change this, but they have been killed or chased away. Nowadays they seem to be a peaceful organisation, but it took at least three major wars, two hundred years and a lot of blood to achieve this.
And through their victories, more than any other Knights Order, they have become a synonym to a nearly invincible armored death machine. Admired and feared at the same time, by their friends and enemies. That is the reason why the battle of Grunwald has become such an strong national pride for the polish people.
Perhaps even more than ‘Schlacht am Kahlenberg’.
But in the expension of the Teutonic campaign for Medieval 2: Total War, the Teutonic Order and Lithuania are the best factions.

I would recommend to you, despite the flaws:

#9

no, i think it makes sense. the defeat of the order would make for a great finale.

the conclusion of the hussite wars is almost anti climatic.

#10

In a way you are right, but this is not so important directly for the bohemian history and kingdom. It is just only the beginning. It is just the event that has foreshadowed the coming of the larger events for the bohemian history.

#11

Well, they said that the plan is to make a trilogy if the game is succesful. KC: D (act 1+2+3) as one part and other two games. And the other 2 games should be about Hussite wars, they have chosen this particular time in history also because of this. So I’m quite convinced that they aim for exactly what you want them to.

#12

On second thought I can see how people would want Teuton gear just because it’s pretty.

#13

from what D.V.-Hellboy says in the most recent video (in Czech), the Act 1 will probably cover a span of about half year, in 1403, concluding with the liberation of Wenzel der Faule. The battle of Grunwald is part of the planned storyline (based on Reddit “Ask me anything” answers from D.V.) but it happens 7 years later - so my guess is that it will be in the Act 3, on a separate map. (Whereas acts 1 and 2 should have interconnected maps because map of act 2 is intended as add-on to the map from act 1, with new quests taking place in both). It is nearly certain there won’t be Hussite wars in the Kingdom Come, but if the trilogy sells well there should be strong interest in continuing with a Hussite-centered sequel (after the act 3) - a new game.

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#14
"...all acts have the same lead character, take place about the same time, in places that are not too far from each other."
My understanding is that all three acts take place in Bohemia and at the end of the main questline there will be the battle of Grunwald on a different smaller map.

from reddit AMA:

"There will be a smaller map in Act I where part of the story wil take place and its in one of those other countries. Part of Act III takes place outside Bohemia as well."
#15

I would refrain from trying to depict the Order in such a black and white colours. Order’s brothers were indeed Crusaders and their methods of Christianisation were quite disturbing but this was quite common at that time and none contemporary observers would consider them especially cruel. It was a great effort of Jogailo to actually create support for his attempts at liberating parts of Lithuania among Polish nobles. This is considered one early and very successful propaganda campaign in history. Prior to it holy knights of Teutonic Order were revered among Polish knights for their ‘efforts of spreading the faith’.

Worth mentioning is also that while for sure Chechs were present on both sides of conflict at least later at the siege of Malbork ( they offered to switch sides and open gates to Poles but the offer was turnt down ) it is then also possible that there were also Chechs on Order’s side at Grunwald.

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#16

Thanks for the effort, it’s a very interesting post, hope to see the next part soon.

I was also curios about your sources on the topic and if by any chance you are a historian.

#17

@COBRAM
To the first question: To ask a person if he is a historian, is good, but not specific enough.
An expert and a Ph.D. in ancient history of Mesoamerica with specialisation in the Ōlmēcah culture. Knows as much on the central european medieval history as a tailor about mending shoes. Pretty nothing. But the true answer on both counts is: NO. But i have friends, which have studied Mesoamerican History. :wink:
I have studied in a university for a certain amount of time (changed latter the direction of my study) japanese language and history. Because of japanese sword fighting, but it doesn’t provide you with a job that can sustain you, at least i thought so. (And that does not make me an expert for the history of central europe.)

To ask for sources for the Battle, is a very good trait. This are my sources:
Historiae Polonicae, Banderia Prutenorum by Polish historian Jan Długosz. (can be found online with translations). I use the translations, because my latin is to weak.

Printed books from modern authors in my possession as sources:
Used very very often by others:
Stephen Tarnbull (2003), Tannenberg 1410: Disaster for the Teutonic Knights, Campaign Series. I love the Osprey series, because they are good as a very small summary (sometimes) and provide you with the necessary knowledge and sources. The other books about the Teutonic Knight are also ok from this series. I share also some of his viewpoint of the battle. But the funny thing is he is used very often by others. But not on the count of the Lithuanian “retreat”. I have learned that the Lithuanians retreated and as Jan Długosz stated, only the polish knights won the battle. (Learned not in Poland!!!)
And the theory that they have been rallied, does not make any sense. I belive in the maneuver, and thankfully it has been confirmed (at least for me) by the discovery of the ‘warning’ letter.

Eric Christiansen (1998) The Northern Crusades: Second Edition

Wiliam Urban (2005) (Love his books about the Teutonic Knight and the Baltic Crusades)
Tannenberg and After: Lithuania, Poland and the Teutonic Order in Search of Immortality (Revised ed.)

About Poland i recommend as a book to read:
Davies, Norman (2005), God’s Playground. A History of Poland. The Origins to 1795 I (Revised ed.), Oxford University Press
A very good book (but not much about the battle), most because it confirmed my thoughts. :wink:
Ohh no. Confirmation bias.

The polish books about it, i have somewhere in my basement and honestly i don’t remember who wrote them, and what someone wrote. I prefer nowadays history view from the neutral side.

Here you can find also more interesting things for the battle, sources and links to sources:
http://www.laborunion.lt/memo/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=7
http://www.warfareeast.co.uk/main/Battle_of_Tannenberg.htm
http://www.theartofbattle.com/battle-of-grunwald-1410.htm (The map is nice, and for many people short enough. TL: DR)

But the next book (despite its bias) that i intend to read about this event is:
Jučas, Mečislovas (2009), The Battle of Grünwald, Vilnius: National Museum Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania,

@FESTINE
As far as i know the siege was lifted in 19.09.1410 before any reinforcements arrived.
The only count to my knowledge, where the Bohemian and Moravian ‘Söldner’, have sold for 190 000 Hungarian florins Malbork / Marienburg, Tczew / Dirschau and Iława / Eylau to poland was in the Thirteen Years’War in the year 1457. And Marienburg Castle was then defended by Olrich Cervinka (czechian) for the polish king against the Teutonic Knights (Moravian mercenaries).

But also i think i have read on many counts, that way before Jogaila the polish knights complained to the Pope about the murderous behavior towards the Baltic Prussians / Pruzzen. And in Jogailos times the Baltic Prussians played no role anymore. In the complains, the polish knights stated, that on one day they convert the Prussians to catholicism and on other day they were all murdered by the Teutonic Knights.
But i have to look into this to verify, where i have read all the counts and what is its sources and what it exactly said.
But the frequent revolts against the Order speak for them self. Where the prussians and poles were killed, germans from the HRE were settled, like in Gdansk / Danzig.
But the polish knights were also no angels, presumably they have killed many many Yotvingians.
But back to the ‘very successful propaganda’ is hard to imagine that it was so successful, if Poland-Lithuania had to hire a lot of mercenaries. The Teutonic Knights had free support from all over the place, like Brandenburgia, Pommern, Hungary and yes even Bohemia (but few). Jan Długosz states that one czech knight fighting for the Order has been caught with his banner, and released after the huge ransome has been paid. I will look for his name.

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Battle of Grunwald on Tuesday?!
#18

I thank you much for sharing your sources and knowledge, i’ll try to look in my library.

And yes, my question was indeed generic, but even an expert of ancient history of Mesoamerica know how to handle sources he may find and understand how much they can be reliable better than your regular middle ages
fanboy. :smile:
And also he may have friends or know professors with knowledge of the field he need to explore.

#19

This is completely incorrect. Orders brothers were far and few between - like 2-3 hundreds in Prussia all in all. That means land would be deserted completely as German settlers would never managed to come in so quickly. Also in Gdansk there were always a germanic minority and they were also richest citizens usually. Also during Great War Teutonic Order brothers still knew the prussian language and this means they had to use it to contact locals. So especially across the Orders domain farmers were probably still Prussian while cities where settled by German and other ethinicty merchants. Nore or less like in Brandenburgia. Great deal of Orders military activities were mostly run in Lithuania - where they were organizing “raizes” that had officially a status of a crusades, inviting knights from around the Europe to raid Samogitia razing the villages and killing people at will - baptising them with sword and fire. I cannot recollect any complaint to Pope about killing Prussians while Polish and Lithuanians where slaughtering mentioned Yatzvingas at the same time …I only can remember the complaints about actually attacking Polish and Mazovians settlements by Order.
Poland had an armistice with Order and this armistice was mostly respected by both sides even though it was officially expired. This only suggest that there was no actual interest on both sides to reengange in conflict. Only after the Union the Order started feeling threatened by overgrown Jagiellonian state as christianization of Lithuania was removing a reason for celebrated crusades. Having support from Holy Roman Empire they expected to make a quick work of it but it happened differently.
On the other hand Polish reasoning behind the Union was removal of biggest threat they felt at that times and that was … Lithuanians. Right side of Vistula river was deserted because of the constant raids of pagan. After the Union this land has been quickly resettled. Among Polish nobles there were many stories told about piety and devotion of holy brothers eventhough at the same time they knew about many cruel doings of Teutonic Order. In those times it wasn’t actually any weird. Only in Jogaila times there was concerted effort to actually promote the modern idea that pagans have a right to live. And this was Polish idea.
What you saying about the Jogaila propaganda campaign is a misunderstanding as well. His goal was to create support for the war in Poland. Poland had little interest in the war and even there were efforts to stop Jogaila from it so he had to provoke Order rather than attack himself. And his campaign was extremely sucesful and your writings are actually big example of this success. While historians try to correct our thinking most people still believe in Teutonic Order “black legend” created by Jogailo. Also most Europe also favoured Teutonics and campaign aim in this area was to prove Polish-Lithuanians right to “defend” against the Order’s attacks. Which took many years after the war to accomplish anything. This all comes from polish historians also so I wouldn’t consider here any bias.
As for Chechs sure they fought on both sides but interestingly Polish were directly enlisting warriors in Chechia. There were 2 full banners from there and from Moravia. One of them riding into the battle under the standard of Saint George.

#20

Part 1:

@Festine
It would be nice if you could state what you think is incorrect, then we could both look into this matter,so it stands on its own, and i don’t know what you mean. I admit that i take a more lithuanian approach to many matters in this topic, and that i defend the weak, this are my knightley character traits. I have chosen the name of Zawisza Charny, because i share many traits with him, and it was FREE to take.

I have never disputed this, i would even state that this is true. The Prussian language died out only in the 18th century, we could even revive it.
But what makes you think that this has been any different how the Teutonic Order dealt with the Prussians, than with the Lithuanians. Naturally without the ‘international holiday travel agency’. The Prussians suffered much under the crusades against them and after the two major uprisings and another 2 smaller ones, they were broken and had no more power to fight. But what could be the numbers ?
Gediminas estimates that in 1400 the region lived around 100k inhabitants, half of them prussians. So if we take the doubling in 100 years in peace times into our account, then only between 12k and 25k survived the hot times. That would be a statistical evidence, against a ‘honorable’ behavior of the teutonic knights.
But because the history is also written by the victor, we need also a better way of solving this question. The genetical analysis of the ‘prussian’ germans. How many of them have the real prussians origin.
I will tend to a estimation of 5% to 15%, which would speak for the ‘evil german administration’, percentage around 50% with a margin of error of 10% would speak for a quite free assimilation. Best it would be conducted on the dead for the years 1800 to 1900, in the burial grounds in different parts of the region.

The 14th century chronicler Peter von Dusburg mentioned eleven tribal districts in Prussia: Bartia, Culmerland (formerly under Polish control), Galindia, Nadrovia, Natangia, Pogesania, Pomesania, Samland, Scalovia, Sudovia, and Ermland. Peter estimated that while most tribes could muster about 2,000 cavalry, Samland could raise 4,000 cavalry and 40,000 infantry, while Sudovia had 6,000 cavalry and “an almost innumerable multitude of other warriors”. In contrast, the Prussians of ravaged Culmerland could raise fewer troops than the other tribes. Galindia, a forested wilderness of lakes and rivers, also had a small population to raise troops from. Modern estimates indicate a total Prussian population of 170,000, smaller than that suggested by Peter von Dusburg.
So what is the difference between 170k and (the higher number) 25k? I would say around 150k. This is at least (if not much more to around 250k) the number of killed prussians by the teutonic knights, and the crusades, within a timespan of 70 years. This would constitute that 80% of the killed were woman and children, because a man does not give birth to a full grown man.
Where do you have the number of 200-300 Knights? And which times?
That was just at the beginning of the Prussian conquest, the numbers have been small, but their numbers were constantly growing. Naturally the Teutonic Knights were much fewer than the numbers of troops they employed. To being a Teutonic Knight was a honorable title and a lives devotion, and you are only accepted if you were a german and a nobleman. And as i belive, you have to remain chaste for the rest of your live. So now you know why the Teutonic Knights enforced so much the ostcolonisation, to have simply the reinforcments and populus to draw their numbers from. A 100 knights and around 200 sergants and normal troops was alone responsible for the slaughter of the Gdansk inhabitants in 1308. And that was a small contingent.
How long would it take to kill around the 150k/250k prussians, if we just assume that the campaign started in 1230 and ended in 1300? (70 years)
((((150k/250k) / 70 years) / 52 weaks) / 7 days) = 2143/3572 per year. = 42/69 per weak. = 6/10 per day. (middle value) For the campaign a smaller time period is advised, only around 50 years.
Naturally this is only to show, how numbers develop, and it is highly possible that some knights killed nobody, while others just went on a killing rampage. But the Teutonic Order you defend, does not deserve your defence.

The Yotvingian killing, occurred during expeditions against them, by Boleslaw V the Chaste or Konrad I of Masovia / Danylo Halytskyi. In the 1280s the Northern Yotvingians were partly conquered and dispersed or killed by the Teutonic Knights. Some Yotvingians, then took refuge in the Duchy of Lithuania, and they survived, even too a census by the clergy of the Belarus Grodno area in 1860, and the census claims that they had as many as 30,929 inhabitants, identifying themselves as Yatviags.

[quote=“festine, post:19, topic:16144”]
Only in Jogaila times there was concerted effort to actually promote the modern idea that pagans have a right to live.
[/quote] My memory tends to get worse and worse. I think it was proposed at a council, by a polish bishop or so… Do you remember who and when this was?

I think to remove the 2 major threats, to gain one ally and to ensure that the land conquered in the east stays in polish hands. And to regain strength through peace after the wars. But also as a pay back for Pommern, which was not forgoten.
I tend to think, that the polish nobles knew or that they thought, after the witnessing of the ‘ostcolonisation’ and the effects of it, that they were the next in line. If they do not stop this development. That is could be also the reason perhaps, why they had proposed the entire Jogaila thing.
But even after the declaration of war by the Order, the attack on polish territory and the damage in 1409 this was not important anymore, Ulich von Jungingen has made his move, and the polish nobility was against him.

End of Part 1.

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