That’s not quite true actually, there’s a fairly specific set of ethics, standards and good practices which one should uphold to be called a journalist. You really don’t need to go far to find the proof, it’s all around us - fullpage ads on games which currently get raving scores on a gaming website, previews which read like sales pitches as opposed to objective information. Again and again, individuals in gaming journalism showed their readers why they cannot be trusted, and they did very little in the ways of remedying the situation, recently even going as far as to write hateful articles aimed against gamers, their own damn readers. As for “gaming journalism” entity, it’s not an entity - it’s a branch of journalism concerned with gaming which is steadily losing trust of their readers, and for a damn good reason.
- Ads for newly released games is normal business. How do you think gaming sites make any money? Just because a site has ads doesn’t mean it can’t uphold proper and ethical journalism. I’m curious how you think gaming sites or magazines should earn any money…
- Previews are indeed kind of sales pitches. But that’s the case because journalists have only limited amount of information on new games and often they are not even allowed to talk about everything. So you either have previews which are similar to sale pitches but with a personal flavor or you don’t have any previews at all.
- Only VERY FEW journalists wrote articles “against gamers/their readers”. You take single examples to make up a generalized claim. That’s a logical fallacy.
- You have no solid proof that gaming journalism as a whole is loosing trust of their readers.
- Trust is only “needed” for reviews and its loosing more and more significance due to the wide variety of offerings on the internet. You could easily say that it was never easier and more comfortable and cheaper to get information about games before you buy them. You don’t even have to buy a single magazine for it anymore. And writing about games is much, much more than just reviews. Gaming itself and gaming media has evolved in the past few years. Writing about games is now not only writing technical “buy or buy not” reviews but writing about culture, arts and society as well.
- Of course there are specific sets of ethics and standards and good practices for gaming journalists. And - surprise - most of the gaming journalists I know stick to them. As I said before, people are prone to failure. But believe it or not, many gaming journalists love their job and they also value the ethics of their occupation.
Gaming journalism may not be a single entity of its own, but it contans various entities, or better said groups, or movements, fellowships or cliques, or whatever you might call it, within itself. Groups (to use a more neutral word) consisting of people sharing specific viewpoints and ideals. All the good and the bad in human society is about the gathering of the like-minded to strive for a common goal.
The fact that there is an active group of people around the gaming industry and journalism that feel like this area is not ideologically open and progressive enough and are willing to try and enforce it if need be is getting pretty apparent. The actual strength of their influence is disputable (the GamerGate by itself proves it to an extent), but they do represent a potential issue without doubt.
@LordCrash, you mentioned earlier how similar sorts of people failed to gain control over the filmmaking industry. Yes and no. Varying pro-social-change activists (feminism, racism) managed to achieve a limited succes in the filmmaking industry and leave an ongoing influence on the mainstream cinema. 1970s brought most of these, like the blaxploitation movement… and today Django Unchained is a major Hollywood blockbuster. And a great movie btw…
But the core problem is somewhere else. It’s not in what agenda is being pursued by some people. If it’s feminism, transgenderism, or whatever. The problem is that ANY agenda is being promoted aggresively and systematically (which it is), even at the possible cost of censorship and control over media by a particular group of people. That is called an ideological propaganda.
It’s actually the flip side of the same coin as with the era of the infamous Hays Code, the Motion Picture Production Code enforced on Hollywood filmmakers by Will Hays and Joseph Breen between 1930s and 1960s.
Their drive came from the still prevailing general social conservativism from the previous decades (and centuries), preserving the ideals of “good old decency” and stuff and it was in many ways a direct contrary to what the current social justice and equality promoters stand for. But their zeal for their goals as well as the means they seem to be willing to use are dangerously similar.
The only question is if they could get a chance to grab themselves the reins like Hays and Breen managed back then.
All they really need is enough (vocal enough) support in right places at the right moment. And they seem to have been pretty much working on that already from all that I have read so far. Including those articles by Erik Kain who (as ultra neutrality-correct as he’s trying to sound like) is also pretty much biased in his statements, only making some extraordinary effort to cover it behind rhetoric. Which makes his accusations of Yiannopoulos in the same issue pretty ridiculous IMO.
And his statements on “right-wing non-gamers (like Adam Baldwin)” posing an equal sort of threat to the gaming industry sound outright laughable. Sorry…
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Absolutely. I’m not against ads per se, what makes me worried is how games advertised this way tend to get rated very highly. Correlation does not imply causation of course, but starting with infamous case surrounding Jeff Gerstmann which happened in about 2007, I have started questioning motivations of bigger magazines and revenue or not, there is clear conflict of interest there.
I’m sorry, but crap like ‘8 reasons to get excited over Titanfall’ has absolutely no place on a site which should as much as resemble a journalistic website. These people should be people with experience, they should know better - I do realize that, as a gamer, it’s difficult to not get excited about cool crap you’ve seen in a trailer, but a journalist should know better and should be able to take the claims publisher/developer makes and dissect them, take past examples, be sceptic.
I’ll bunch these two together because I feel that they are related - yes, you are absolutely correct, all of these things are isolated cases and I’m sure that 90% of gaming journalists out there are trying to be honest, direct and … well, actual journalists. I’m sure that if a bunch of guys arguably gave better score to a game after sleeping with a dev, most people would not really care. But you want a proof that gaming journalism is losing trust? Look around you. Look at this topic. Look at the shitstorm that ensued, at the shitstorm which should have ended at “These guys probably shouldn’t have done that”. The shitstorm is not because of this one, single incident, the shitstorm happened because this single incident topped off a whole string of incidents before. And I feel sorry for the people who are just caught in the crossfire, I really am - but what I am voicing here, now, is how I, personally, feel about modern gaming journalism, and the fact that I find it increasingly difficult to find useful information in professional magazines remains unchanged.
Really? I don’t know. I just don’t. Do people care about trust when consuming gaming news and developments? I know I do. Perhaps most people don’t. I can’t speak for them.
As for any proof and hard data - I would love to find them. If you get your hands of some, please, let me know, I will gladly be proven wrong. I am not able to find any such thing, and so all I can derive my information from is me, my peers and various discussion boards and other social services.
mr-cappadocia.tumblr.com/post/97960766962/i-couldve-told-him-sjws-wont-stop-because-they
not a problem? 
Lack of research does not validate the holding of anecdotal experience as fact. This goes as well for the argument of “bias in the media” or “bias in gaming media” or “bias in pretty much anything” as it does for “misogyny in gaming”.
If you can’t understand why this is the case, then frankly, friend, you’re part of the problem, not the solution.
Also, you cannot prove a negative, only a positive. This, for you, should be telling; why? Because there is considerable research and literature on the nature of both confirmation bias and dis-confirmation bias in ALL areas of human communication and discourse… despite gamers apparently preferring to think their industry some manner of special snowflake, it isn’t.
Is there slant and bias in media? Yup. Across the board.
Is our media any less a mouthpiece for propaganda than any other country’s? Nope. Not one jot.
How and why could (or would) you possibly think otherwise? 'Murica? Please… no… just… no.
Perhaps you’re not aware of it, but roughly 85% of ANYTHING you read, see, hear, on ANY media outlet (i.e., professional, branded, etc) is PAID PLACEMENT ADVERTISING OR PUBLICITY. The “gaming journalism” you remember is what we had BEFORE ADVERTISING AND MARKETING got involved; frankly, before “our demographic” was discovered to have as much influence (striking), credibility (extraordinary), and buying power (epic) as it does.
So in some pretty direct ways, it has become mostly propaganda of one sort or another by competing products, services, and yes, opinions.
In fact, you could say that the very reason you now find so much “cray cray” and so little “reliable information” is exactly because gaming as an industry is (in many and ever-more-mutable ways) is “mainstream”.
Also, it isn’t “censorship” if it doesn’t involved government. Check your definitions.
You folks are so busy being angry at what you fear becoming the “new perspective” that you can’t even tell you’re being played like violins. This group, with their agendas, are feeding you precisely the right propaganda to get your heads to explode because it is well known that you will “flame on”.
And most of you are so busy getting your flame on that you simply cannot see just how well you’re being played… or why ignoring it is like starving oxygen from a fire… both yours and theirs.
Is there conflict of interest in media? Heh. Of course, silly. Did you think once “gaming media” found out they could make more taking a cut for advertising and impressions online there was any hope of it retaining even a glimmer of attempt at objectivity on ANY side?
Stars… I bet the publicists and propagandists just LOVE you to pieces. ~shakes head~
Actually, it is precisely an opinion issue. More often than not, it is also one of confirmation bias.
There is no more or less a problem in “gaming media” than there is in ANY media. Indeed, the problems of media becoming common for this industry really shouldn’t be that big a surprise. What is surprising, however, is that so many can be so epically trolled on its behalf.
Well, it’s rather hard to understand how issues tend to dry up without response/attention if you’ve never actually managed to do either… so until you do, it’s kind impossible to really tell you about it in any way you can actually hear.
But there is an object lesson in this very thread… note that absolutely no progress on “a solution” has been had. Note as well that no such progress WILL be had because all attempts to stifle, silence, or counter “the other side” only ensures the argument and polarization of both sides continues and presses toward their highest available extreme.
That would be the “fire” in the previous analogy. Now if you cannot understand how starving the fire is a better solution than pouring oxygen on it (i.e., response), well, not a lot anyone can do for you or the outcome.
I think I’ve managed to elaborate on the indirect questions on my previous comments since my last post so, again, I attempt to take my leave.
Wish me luck. Heh.
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/stopped reading there
You’re regurgitating tripe with little or no reference to fact. #GamerGate was, is and likely always will be about a bunch of whiny misogynists decrying the fact that some hussy had the audacity to sleep with someone other than them.
They’re having a public hissy fit because they think they’ve just figured out that marketing is primarily lies and marsh gas. Big whoop. That’s what it has always been. Cars/hardware/software/whatever. It has never been 100% unfettered, honest truth.
Yet, instead of simply acquiring a few reliable sources for reviews, we’re off on a witch hunt to squirrel out all those nasty bloggers and faux journalistas who have been lying through their teeth,
These aren’t heroes. These are children with profoundly impaired impulse control and an inflated sense of self worth.
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All right, first of all, elaboration:
You do realize I have said what you quoted to make sure everybody understands that what I’m saying is my experience and not a fact, right? I should not even have to say that, we’re on discussion boards - of course everything I say is my opinion and my experience, unless specifically stated otherwise.
Well… Yes? I said I would really like access to some data and that I would love to be proven wrong, I never said that what I’m saying is the truth and will remain the truth until proven otherwise.
When did this all become about american media?
Now, second:
Oh, but it is. While I do agree that any and all forms of passing information will always have similar issues, what gamers have gotten used to and other media didn’t quite catch up yet is free flow of information, in other words, this oceany cably thing we talk to each other trough. It raises standards and changes expectations when, the very moment one source of information becomes too biased and unrealiable, you can readily start using a completely different one. But that’s just a part of a problem - see PhanTom_CZ’s post for another one. When so many consumers of a media can find so many different reasons as to why they dislike it, I feel something is not right.
I just said that. Didn’t I just say that? Yeah, that’s my reason as to why I’m not a huge fan. Is it an industry standard and is it a widespread issue? I don’t particularily care to be honest, that’s not really going to change much of my perspective and it’s not going to make journalism any more worthwhile in my eyes (just as any other source paid for by ‘targets’ of this information)
Again, can’t speak for others, but what you might not quite realize is that I have held these beliefs long before the so-called “gamersgate” happened. And I still believe that if others didn’t have similar sentiments formed already, no “gamersgate” would see the light of the day (what a silly name)
because having an open mind and hearing what other people have to say is misogynistic.
the irony…
judging by your use of “journalistas”, the sexism/misogyny issue must be important to you. show me where gamergate has condoned death threats and misogyny. you’re making assumptions about their views because people like zoe quinn, sarkeesian, alexander, watson, etc are telling you to dismiss any critics by labeling them misogynist. even if they have nothing to do with the 4chan trolls who did perpetrate those threats.
people who talk about reliable news sources must not understand the scope of the issue. it affects the entire game media, not just gawker owned assets. this was the attitude 4 years ago. just ignore it, find other sites.
It should be important to everyone. But that’s clearly not the case here. What we should be doing, apparently, is losing our collective giblets over shoddy journalism which is such a unique feature of the gaming world it needs to be bleated about incessantly… everywhere… with little regard to anything approaching reality.
Paid-for spam-verts are nothing new. Initially it was self correcting. Anyone caught fiddling the facts would find themselves communicating to a severely diminished readership. Now that “we” imagine anyone with access to the internet is a verified source of factoids this is no longer the case.
Given that this vocal minority of bleaters - who had somehow convinced themselves that everything they read anywhere, or watched on youtube, was cold, hard, fact - are now having a crises of reality because… Hey! People will lie for reasons - (HOW DARE THEY! THE HUMANITY! TRANSPARENCY! ACCOUNTABILITY!) - we now have to endure endless pity-parties by self-deluded kiddies carrying on about how we all need to do something indeterminate about this non-issue that they’re having conniptions about.
Get over it, snowflakes. This is nothing original or noteworthy. The brain-foaming hatred, misogyny and abuse are. They’re indicative of a disorder which requires intervention to correct.
no one’s saying it’s new, people are saying it’s probably not wise to let it continue. they’re reacting now precisely because they’ve seen too much of it. again, strawmen and misrepresentations aren’t productive, they obfuscate the reality of the situation.
i’ve noticed a sense of entitlement within gamergate, but why should i begrudge anyone for that? especially if they’re hardcore gamers, or if they’re developers, and it is their livelihood. why should they have to live with apprehension that if some hypersensitive person doesn’t like their views, or what they said, or their refusal to capitulate to an agenda, game media sites which have tens of millions of visitors will refuse to write about their games, or try and smear this person?
this is not solely theoretical, but practical concerns. that’s why developers and journalists are quick to toe the line. gamergate is a show of solidarity between people who do not want this to continue. it has nothing to do with very specific views and movements. there is no agenda.
and just to go into quinn’s character a little bit. she actually botnet attacked, with some associates of hers, a rival female development team. she claims to support women in gaming, yet this is how she treats her fellow women developers. not the best person to reference for ethics or honesty.
You quoted this
I said this
I won’t continue since everyone can see what kind of manipulative moron you are.
Just one little thing - you just called Daniel Vavra, creative director of this game, a whiny miogynist child with profoundly impaired impulse control and an inflated sense of self worth. Just wanna make sure you know who you are speaking about.
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You referred to a generic collection of people as “Social Justice Warriors”, a derogatory phrase coined by the mindless, prattling, neckbeards looking to stir up support for their severely distorted view of reality and you think the most pertinent word is the omitted “discussion”?
Ad hominem attacks aren’t all that effective a debating strategy.
- Interesting narrative, please do continue.
- Argument from authority is as effective as screaming “potato” at random moments.
I get that you feel somehow invested in this non-event, but we really need to think our way through it for ourselves instead of outsourcing all the thinking.
Suit yourself, keep trolling, I’m not gonna feed you anymore.
This.
See Ukrainian crisis. See renewable energies. Both sides.
I think Gamergate is just a specific outburst of what people perceive as a more and more consolidated “journalism”.
Now it’s specific to that topic and they react specific, but I think it’s a general issue, it’s just that not many people realize it yet.
But if you look at the commentary sections of almost any european newspaper or weekly magazine you’ll find more and more disagreement with the expressed views. In Germany newspaper articles have attacked those who disagree as “professional trolls” and in case of Ukraine topics “paid russian agents”. This is so ridiculous that you don’t know if to laugh or to cry. (Source: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/propaganda-aus-russland-putins-trolle-1.1997470 there are more out there. If you’re not familiar with german journalism, this is one of the biggest, most serious and most accepted magazines).
This goes so far that in Germany a cabaret show (interestingly one in state tv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_c2-Yg5spU, which is probably kept to show that criticism is allowed as long as it’s presented as a “joke”) pointed to a network of top-tier journalists that is directly linked to conservative atlantean think tanks - and they were immediately sued.
And finally - this could be true if viewed in historical context. A good starter might be the book “Plutocrats” by Chrystia Freeland.
I’m not saying Gamergate doesn’t exist. I just say that it mixes so many different things, so various (sometimes alleged and I am not talking about the personal threats here) attacks and sentiments.
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gamergate is a pretty self explanatory concept. it’s derived from watergate, so you know it has to do with corruption, not hating women. that’s just misrepresentation by people too stupid to notice the logical fallacy, since many gamergate supporters are females.
it’s a general idea, as you say, and serves to raise awareness rather than push an agenda. the goal is to let curious people do the research themselves. that’s why it’s largely twitter based, you cannot write polemics and research papers in such formats, but you can spread message quickly.
this man produces some good videos about the catalyst of gamergate. there are 3 parts. he’s a bit of a man’s rights activist, but that shouldn’t stop you from seeing the evidence he is presenting.
gender traitor below(trigger warning):
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when i red that i thought it was meant sarcastic and your pro-gamergate. Now I understand what they keep complaining about. This “war” between “sexists” and “SJW” is stupid. How are people supposed to make video games under that kind of pressure in such a hatefull enviorment. You can’t make a neutral “unpolitical” game, everthing is political. The best we can hope for is the honest perspectiv of the developers and that would reflect there opinon and ideology. Portrayal of woman in video games is worth talking about in game jurnalism. But that doesn’t mean i trust the sites in question. I stopt puting any stock in game scores years ago and to be honest lately I’ve been reading more about video games on regular newspaper sites than gaming-news-sites.
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I strongly disagree with this. Only thing necessary for evil to win is good people doing nothing. ANd its just what happened over the last decade. We let the trolls spread their agenda everywhere and now they are able to silence opposition.
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But trolling back isn’t a good idea either and the hole “good and evil” thinking is exactly the reason there can be no polite/constructiv discussion at this point.
The problem is and you may not know, we have tried again and again and again, to be calm, reasonable, civil and so on. But all we are ever met with is hostility & name calling. One poster over at The Escapist, said it best in response to a person who had repeatedly said the same thing you are-
lmlloyd-
“I have explained this to you before, but you still refuse to listen to anyone. No, sitting and being civil while someone else just screams insults at you, is most definitely not how arguments work. There is a point, long since passed, where the only rational, the only reasonable, the only civil thing to do, is to say “I see you can’t be reasoned with, and so I’m no longer going to try.” To continue past that point, still trying to reason with the irrational monkey flinging feces at you, is unreasonable. To demand a person go back, and have more feces flung at them, or you will declare them unreasonable, is completely unreasonable.
No matter how much you try to explain it away, there is a very explicit and delineated “us” and “them” in this situation. Both sides are in complete agreement; there are gamers (that would be us) and there are the people who cannot stand gamers, who want gamers dead, who see gamers as the very embodiment of everything that has ever stymied their ambitions throughout their entire life, who wish to destroy the gamer identity, to replace it with something of their own creation, and for their own goals (that would be them). To act as though that was not reality, to ignore the reams of evidence, the admissions, the manifestoes, and the dozen articles declaring this to be the case, would not be ‘civil,’ it would be delusional. We are not all one big happy family, having a tiff. There are a specific group of people, who by their own admission are not part of our community, and have no wish to be part of our community, who have the active goal of invalidating out cultural identity, and silencing our voice in any conversation about the content we wish to play.
You have repeatedly asked people whose very cultural identity is under attack, to be “better than” those who seek to invalidate their voice, by not fighting back, or standing up for themselves. I will maintain, that is not ‘civil,’ that is actually quite an unreasonable request, and tantamount to cultural suicide.”
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