Sir Walter Scott only established the “modern” image of Robin Hood, but the original legends he was drawing on date to the Middle Ages.
The first known ballad “The talkyng of the munke and Robyn Hode.” dates to c1450, but the first literary reference is William Langland’s throwaway reference to the “rymes of Robyn hood” c1377.
Anyone interested should check out Robin Hood
Robin Hood isn’t any single person, there were several and in various parts of the country.
Again, I didn’t understand everything in detail you try to say, but maybe it’s my fault and a language problem. But PEACE I think our opinions are not that different as it seems.
But one last thing about those “historical extremists” and high expectations and than I will be quiet:
I think the “problem” is, that Warehorse announced to make a very realistic game. They go to castles, to battle-reenactment, spend much time to make the landscape look right (great looking creek in the last movie! My compliments!)…
So the expectations on realism are high also for those many medieval enthusiasts and living-history people. So it’s no wonder that we have the very same discussions here like in that living-history boards. i do this for almost 20 years and most of this discussions ends where the one side calls the other “extremist” and the other side don’t want to waste any time convincing the other, what is taken as arrogance from the first side in return … yes, I will cry if I see those quivers on the back and it will be a pain in my side… but please have mercy or symphaty with us “extremists”. For people like us, mixed clothing or armor with more than 20 years diference, for instance… are as cruelsome as for other people seeing a movie from the battle of Waterloo with modern soldiers among the ranks. 
Poor people like us will never fully enjoy a historic movie!!
I know how to make compromises and I don’t want to criticise every wrong buckle… I was historical consultant for TV and games and there literally runs blood from my eyes, but in that special cases it was OK.
What makes me a little bit mad is that Warehorse makes such a great game, all in perfection, and than having those little nasty AVOIDABLE errors. They ask us all for help and critical reveal and so I feel myselve in charge to point at those nasty errors. If that is not wantet, then its OK for me. I like that game very much and nearly cant’t await to play it (I even will buy a new PC for the Alpha).
Just want to mention, that in the Russel Crow film, they do actually use arrow bags worn on the hip.
But horizontal at the lower back… looks to work ok.
Does he have a quiver on the back in this very old picture? 
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Hehe… no chance to gag us “extremists” that easy
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For people like us, mixed clothing or armor with more than 20 years diference, for instance… are as cruelsome
Well, honestly, I have 20 years old clothes in my closet and I still wear them from time to time. I also wear lot of clothes that are looking exactly like the clothes made 50 years ago - jeans, baseball caps, shirts, cargo pants, shoes… And in war, this is even more usual. Look at Ukraine now, the rebels use AK 47 designed (guess when!) in 1947. They have uniforms from all over the world ranging from the sixties Vietnam stuff to latest hitech multicam/Atacs camo gear. And I would dare to say, that in medieval period this was even more common. The stuff was built to last, more expensive, the news and fashion spread much slower, so I would dare to say, that it could be quite possible to see people with gear ranging from much bigger period than 20 years.
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No. We do not see where is the quiver in the picture.
Good example.
Hellboy, you are not quite correctly understood the text.
Europe reenactors have a large database of artifacts and images. And they can monitor changes in clothing and armor quite accurately. From here - 20 years. It is damned fashion. 
But this is possible where there is a lot of information. Those who engage in other periods, with much less information base, using the approach of the AK-47.
“This-is-not-historically-accurate extremists.”
Hey, it is not the right ax.
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Ohjeh, now i have to write a longer clarification. It would be a cheap trick to say "read the word ‘mixed’’… But I wrote this a little bit provocative, so I think I have to suffer the consequence.
Yes, many of us “extremists” can look at a painting and can tell you by chance in witch quarter of the century it was painted, if it is from Italy, France, Northern Germany, Southern Germany… and we can tell you witch rank in the society the painted persons have, all by the clothes or armour.
The next thing you would say is, that those painting will not show the truth, but an idealistic imagination of the artist.
In return of that I would say: Artists in that period don’t do “art pour l’art” but would do commission painting for money. They are more craftsmen than artists. We can prove that they paint their everyday surrounding by comparing it with findings, legislative texts, by last will texts, by job-contracts etc. The trick is to filter out the fantasy elements, witch needs a little bit experience. But remember, many of us will do that for years, in their free time and for fun!
Old clothes: In our time it is cool to wear clothes that shows us as rebels, as individualists… we like to look different from the other ones. In medieval times you would do everything to avoid this!
The late medieval society is mostly organized in very close and exclusive social groups. Each group has very strict rules and standards. That sounds bad in our modern ears, but in return those social groups are very important for living. They provide protection, social security, jobs, marriage and identification. It was very difficult to become part of such a group, if you were a stranger and if you would become an outsider, then you could easily fall through the social net and could lost your basis for living. The rules were so strict, they even had a written “dresscode” (Kleiderordnungen) by law!
Clothing were extremely important. As you say, clothes were expensive. In modern times we could hardly understand how important. Everybody can easily buy a new T-Shirt if you don’t like it any more, so clothes don’t really show who you are, because you could change them so easy. Imagine a society where you are forced by law (if you live in a town) or by social expectation what you have to wear! A new jacket costs you half of your income and if you decide to be “different” and wear what you want, you could lost your job and everything what you have! It’s even prohibited to wear clothes that are above your income and your social rank, so that everyone could see where you belongs!
Having all of this in mind, we could expect the clothes of a social group to be very homogenous.
Because “clothes make a man”, they are subject of important social mechanisms … and of fashion! You even won’t look more poor than your neighbor, but for a brave young man/woman fashion is a way to be a little bit different in your given boundaries… as long as it becomes standard, then everybody has to wear it and so on… but this process is not that fast as in modern times.
In large towns like Lübeck we had a whole street with “second hand shops” and an other street with tailors. If you got old cloth from your grandfather, then you go to a tailor (or your mother) and let them make something new from the fabric, because manpower is cheep and the fabric is expensive. In modern time it is the opposite!
For instance: If long tails on hoods are not in fashion any more, we could find hundreds of cut-of hood-tails in archeological excavations.
By the way, in medieval times not all clothes are made to last… shoes for instance were a “throw-away thing”. You would wear them for only some month. We found piles of shoes from that time with every excavation. So they are very easy to replace with more fashionable ones.
Soldiers: In modern times we think, soldiers should wear very comfort, sturdy, camouflage and practical uniforms. In late medieval times it was nearly the opposite! Professional soldiers don’t belong to any social group, they build their own and were free to wear what they want to show that they are different, what might be a universal need of men. So soldiers are the real “fashion-victims” of their time! They often wear impractical, colorful and exotic clothes and with this they often creates new trends.
Wow… very long writing! And for me it took a very long time to write it in English. To make a short ending: You will certainly found old fashioned clothes and armour among the medieval people. But everyone who could afford a little bit extra money (or do-it-yourselve time) would upgrade his look. So afaik it would not be the standard, but more the exception to wear old clothes.
Old armour: Of cause, there was much old armour in circulation. But because the same things like for clothes are true for armour (they are several texts where a poor guy in his fathers old armour was was the subject of mocking and jokes) you would like to get your hands on a new one as soon as you can. Because it is not only a fashion-thing, but also scientific progress, this is even more presumerable.
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You “reenactors” are getting annoying, sorry…
But: since the game is set in Bohemia and Sigismund was the king of Hungary it’s very likely that most of the archers used in that time were actually Magyars (the other ranged forces probably crossbowmen from Italy or Bohemia). It is quite well known that Magyars used a special arrow quiver (tevez) on the right sight of the hip and a special bow quiver on the left site of the hip, both connected with the belt. Magyars were of course cavalry units shooting with a sophisticated composite bow made of horn and bones. Magyars usually wore a second belt for the scabbard of their scabre which they used in melee combat. The scabbard for the sabre was also on the left side besides the bow quiver.
So IMO archers should look like that in the game (and not like English longbowmen…):
Also worth to mention that their clothes and armor isn’t very comparable to western European fashin at the same time…
Edit: Good read on the topic: http://www.atarn.org/magyar/magyar_1.htm
Glad a thread was made about this, stood out to me when I watched the video. Hope that back quivers get taken out of the game.
This is becoming a headache.
Let’s sum it up: So far what we managed to prove is that in the past, bow quivers were being worn on approximately three different places. Which of these were more or less common seems to differ a lot depending on particular century and place, with the belt option apparently being the most commonly used. But if exclusively, that’s doubtful.
- on your belt by the hip
- on the back of your waist, sticking somewhat to your side
- on your back sticking over your shoulder
ALL of these were historically in use (where, when and how much - that provably varies) and all of these are still physically possible to be used anyway. Sometimes it still sounds rather primitive how people keep “fighting” for what they seem to see as the one and only acceptable way (it’s getting kinda religious here, don’t you think?) with argumentation still falling down to ‘‘No, no, no, no, erase it, OBLITERATE the heretical shoulder quiver from the game outright! Burn it at stake! Amen!’’
@Hellboy Mr. Vávra, do you think it might be just possible to make the bow/crossbow quivers interchangeable or completely optionable, to just let the player use an option he sees as more fitting? So that everyone could use his preferred option and just go turning some NPCs into pincushions in peace. 
You are right in some stuff, you definitely know much more about the era than me, and I would not dare to doubt the facts you are mentioning. The problem I have is the interpretation of the facts. We read lot of books about fashion, clothing, how they were made and so on. The problem is, that very little was preserved and so the best informations we have are paintings and iluminations from the period. In case of our country, the main source of information is illuminated bible of king Venceslas, few paintings in churches and some statues and tombstones. The illuminations are usually not very detailed so all the books we read were just guesses how it was. So basically we have tens of very bad illustrations that are usually not even displaying daily life, but rather saints, nobility or wars, we have some statues, tombstones and very few actual clothes and by that we try to reconstruct how over a million people of all classes looked like over the period of several decades? Its like if aliens would found heavy metal magazine from 70s, Forbes magazine from 00s and assumed, that people during the 20th century all looked like Ozzy Osbourne or Donald Trump
I would also mention a story I read about the speed of fashion spreading - a Bohemian noble was studying in France as a young man, he bought fancy clothes there, to look like a dandy when he returned home, but then he wore these clothes for the rest of his life, so everyone could see, that he was in France once.
I never heard about dress codes in our country, but its something I will check, its interesting.
But back to the quivers. I discussed this with our character artists, since this is not my specialty and the main reason for back quivers is technical, not historical. The quiver is big and the characters hands would be going trhough it. Since the game is first person, itr would be quite visible when running and looking down. But the same problem would happen during horse riding, falling down or sitting. Whet should we do when archers sits on the chair? Crossbow quiver is smaller and so it could be there, but this would be too big and awkward and since this is not historically impossible and its less awkward, that is the reason why they moved it to back. Its not as simple as it may seem at first sight
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Hi Dan,
thank you for your kind words. I now fully understand your problems.
To probably help you a litte bit or to make you fully mad, I asked a friend today who is a studied historian with specialty field of knowledge in East European cloth and armour of the 15th cent. Here is what he said (please mind the conjunctive and my bad translation):
‘Hi Tobi, Bohemia should look (with a preponderance of paveses and Hussites and such stuff), de facto like the German Empire. Western Europe (France / England) is something else again. Poland would be largely the same, but in the eastern regions with Russian influences. But horsebows and horse archers are both a no-go. The east-influence among the Slavs only comes on in Russia and possibly deepest Balkans, Hungary itself I do not exactly know, but at least the knighthood was strong west (possibly Italian) orientated.’
So probably you did quite well in choosing the more West European style for your game.
To the technical problems: Do you have the same problems for instance with a sword hanging from the belt? Some quivers in that time looks similar to crossbow bolt quivers, only longer. So they are really compact. But I think most people would not mind the compromise with the quiver on the back, as long as you say “we have really try it and talked about that but it is not easily possible”. That is completely different from those abyss of ignorance wich is usually shown by other publishers! But please use this not as free ticket for other problems!
If you want to argue with reconstructor - argue with him in the language of facts, images, and historical texts. Sorry.
Yes, but we have some a problems.
- Most of the materials of the Hungarians refers to 9-10th. Your pictures and review from ATARN applies to this time.
- In 973, they accept Christianity.
- Hungary in the 15th century - is a European country. And draw the Hungarians as of nomads is a mistake in this period.
But Hungarians are significant numbers of cavalry archers actually. But as they looked in the 15th century - is the question.
Yes, it’s a big problem.
Hellboy, thanks for the reply. There are several issues.
What is the role of archery in the game? And how many arrows can release protagonist while hunting or fighting one place?
Will lifting arrows land is realized?
Have seen variant without quiver - with arrows in his belt?
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Swords are most likely be on the belt. And they are problem as well, but we decided that one sided problem is better than both sided one Archery will be used in hunting and combat, so its quite important.
If I plan to sit down on a bench next to a table. I usually unstrap my swordbelt and put the sword (in its scabbard) against the table or on the table. This also makes it easier to actually draw the sword if needed.
So just let characters do this. Sure it require animatons. but should help with clipping issues.
Now My experience with carrying bows and quivers is very limited. But taking it off and putting it against or on the table or on the ground makes sense to me.
Also:
If you are carrying a bow and asked to go talk with your Lord, leaving your weapons with the guards might be the polite option., So simply make guard or similar require this when possible.
Make a cutscene with you taking off you weapons. Clipping problems solved.
I remembered another option. About it talked here before.
Quiver on a belt that goes over your shoulder. In the active phase quiver on his belt, and when driving - behind. Movement of the hand to move the quiver on his back, and another to wear bow.
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/f/foppa/sebastia.html
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/p/predis/cristofo/sphaera3.html
One more thing. You talked about the problem of the motion, the seat and fall with the quiver. A dressed-up bow does not cause similar problems?
Yes and no.
In fact, Hungary was a “devided” country at that time, a country which accepted ideas of other European countries but a country which also stuck to its traditions. Sources tell us that although the nobility and upper class was getting used to European ideas the mass of the population wasn’t. They accepted Christianty, sure. But that didn’t change the way they thought and especially not the way they fought in combat. You cannot compare the living conditions and realities of the nobility living in Budapest at the time and the people live in the plains to the East. Sources tell us that cavalry archers were quite common in Hungary at that time.
Of course we don’t know exactly if they look the same as 200 years before. But that was my point in the very first place. Why do you think that archers in Bohemia at 1400 should look like English longbowmen and using their tech instead of thinking that they might look more like Hungarian cavalry archers?
We don’t know exaclty how archers looked in Bohemia at 1400 on a broader scale. One of the only primary sources from the time and place is the Bohemian bible indeed. There are two types of archers in it, one without armor and one with armor. That’s it. That is not enough to make a statement about what most archers at that time in the country actually looked like. That’s mostly speculation on the tiny basis of very few primary sources…
So perhaps we should just give Warhorse some creative freedom to come up with their vision for what was used on a broader scale during the time (my personal guess: different bows, different armor, different looks, different techniques,…)…
Was hunting a serious crime in Bohemia in 1400 (without permission)?