So was the rest of continental Europe. The closest you really had in the West to the modern concept of a unified nation at the time was England.
True but in terms of culture France, Germany and Italy for example were much closer. While the European parts of Hungary didnât have much in common with the people from the steppe like Cumans⊠
So much for historical accuracy of medieval paintings. Back to the game.
âIn this copy of a 10th century manuscript, the artist remodelled Saxon bowmen in their âphrygian capsâ as âSeljuk Turksâ and the bows appear to be ârecurveâ. Where they keep their arrows is a mystery ⊠and a rather strange technique - he must have had some knowledge but it seems unlikely the artist ever saw an arrow âloosedâ.â
âLightly-equipped Danish bowmen in action during war in the 9th century. Using self-nock âflat bowsâ drawn to the chest, the piles on the arrows appear to resemble the common leaf-shaped flesh-cutter used in hunting at the time. Unusually for the time, the Danes are shown with close-cropped hair.â
My position: The myth of arrow quivers on the back
Yes. Then make a practical division in the game.
- Long bow - the weapon of farmers and hunters that can be used in the defense of the castle.
- Crossbow - the basic weapon of the infantry, and the defense of the castle.
- Composite bow with a quiver (cylindrical or flat) - weapons of individual riders and âhungariansâ / ânomadsâ.
Simple bow and arrows are used on all territory Europe. Such simple bows are known in the regions where it was widespread composite bow. I think the simple bow was popular among the poor: peasants, shepherds, hunters. A composite bow is a weapon of horseman - mostly. It is difficult to manufacture and cost some money. I think itâs very real variant for the Czech 15th.
I think that it is necessary to divide the longbow and composite bow in the game.
The hero of the game starts simple blacksmith - well, let him shoot with a simple bow. When he became a soldier - added crossbow. And after he became knights - appears possible to use a composite bow from a horse (how in Mount&Blade).
The question here is far as possible to implement in the game. We are faced with the problem of placement different weapons on the body of the hero.[quote=âLordCrash, post:120, topic:16224â]
So perhaps we should just give Warhorse some creative freedom to come up with their vision for what was used on a broader scale during the time
[/quote]
The value of a forum that people find a new valuable information.
I found an interesting Hungarian manuscript (KĂ©pes krĂłnika - 1360).
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagyarorszĂĄg_uralkodĂłinak_listĂĄja - Lots of pictures are in individual topics kings.
Very interesting images. Only necessary to clarify who is portrayed as a nomadic: Hungarians or Tatars.
And ThurĂłczi-krĂłnika
http://thuroczykronika.atw.hu/
http://thuroczykronika.atw.hu/pdf/Thuroczy.pdf
It is easier - itâs the middle or the end of the 15th century. And this nomadic is Turks or Tartars.
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Bohemia was and still is part of the Central/Western Europe and closest country in terms of culture was always Germany. 30% of people at the time were Germans, half of the names of towns have german origin and Prague was capitol of Holy Roman Empire, which was mostly Germany 
So we have very little in common with Hungarians or even other slavic nations except decades of communism and iron courtain (no offense to our Polish, Russian and other slavic fans and friends! )
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By the way about Germany and eastern quiver. 
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4743/11679/ Germany 1389
âConcordantiae Caritatisâ des Ulrich von Lilienfeld Germany 1349-1351
Cologne
Martyrdom of St. Sebastian, prayerbook of Barbara von Cilly (ĂNB 1767, fol. 270r), 1448 Vienna.
Conrad Laib, Salzburg 1449
Ahem, Hungary is NOT a slavic countryâŠ
But yes, a big part of the Bohemian society were German or German oriented, but mostly only the nobility and clergy while the peasantry was Bohemian/Czech. Even the language (and culture and social) barrier between nobility and peasantry (German vs. Czech) was one of the reasons for the uprising of the Czech.
And yes, Sigismund was the Roman Emperor later but he also was the king of Hungary. He specificially made an edict about the light archer cavalry in Hungary to make them stronger again after his experiences in Nicopolis (the militia portalis). But you might be right that these archers were rarely used in Bohemia since part of the edict was the reassurance that the Hungarian nobility only had to fight within their borders.
I personally still think that that there were many different kinds of archers present at that time and at the location. And I also think that crossbowmen were much more numerous. But Iâm happy with anything youâll come up. Just explain it in detail to usâŠ
I wasnt saying that Hungary is Slavic and I dont want to start any nationalist discussions so I should have rather said, that the country was part of the Holy Roman Empire and then Habsburg monarchy for several hundred years so most of its existence it was under western influence and I am saying that cause lot of people who dont know our history still think that some eastern nomad tribes lived here. They didnt.
Ah ok, I understand. But you could said most of that for Hungary as well. In fact, Louis the Great, Hungarian, Polish and Croatian king in the 14th century (direct predecessor of Sigismund as his father-in-law btw), was one of the most powerful men in whole Europe with a very cultured way of living. Of course there lived tribes in Hungary but it wasnât a wild and uncivilized country by any means. His style of regency wasnât much different from the one people were used in Germany or the HRE. I think the mistake here is to believe that eastern European rulers and kingdoms were all barbarians. Sure, they had influences from nomadic tribes and a diffferent cultural heritage than central or western Europeans but at least the nobility wasnât all that different in 1400âŠ
It wasnât my intention to say that tribes lived in Bohemia as well. My point was that Sigismund might used Hungarian forces or mercenaries as the king of the country who was deeply rooted there. So it could have been quite possible to meet Hungarian-influenced or Hungarian archers in Bohemia at 1400. At least there are sources that claim that Sigismund himself wore Hungarian clothes, spoke Hungarian fluently and spent most of his time there. So itâs not that far fetched to think that he actually brought some influences and elements back to Bohemia (one might be fashionâŠ)
[quote]Hungarian affiliations
Sigismund was known to speak fluent Hungarian, wore Hungarian style royal clothes and even grew his beard as the Hungarians.[12]
He also spent huge amounts of money during his reign to rebuild the Gothic castles of Buda and VisegrĂĄd in the Kingdom of Hungary, ordering the transportation of materials from Austria and Bohemia.[13]
His many affairs with women led to the birth of several legends, as the one that existed decades later during the reign of the King Matthias Corvinus of Hungary. According to this, John Hunyadi was Sigismundâs illegitimate son. Sigismund gave a ring to the boyâs mother when he was born, but one day in the forest a raven stole it from her, and the ring was only recovered after the bird was hunted down. It is said that this incident inspired the coat of arms of the Hunyadis, and later also appeared in the coat of arms of Matthias âCorvinusâ.[14]
Sigismund adopted the Hungarian reverence for Saint Ladislaus I of Hungary, who was considered to be an ideal Christian knight at that time. He went on pilgrimage several times to his tomb in NagyvĂĄrad. Before Sigismund died, he ordered to be buried next to the king saint.[15][/quote]
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
Edit: I donât have any nationalist feelings here, donât worry. Iâm a true cosmopolitan or at least European. But I have indeed some Hungarian roots so thatâs where my interest come fromâŠ
It is rare, but here I must actually even give Crash-Lord right. It was since that time actually a discernible influence on the fashion and culture in Germany. Hungarian was âinâ in the 15th century (and yes, those quivers shown in the last pictures were very common in Germany in that time and also âHungarian saddlesâ and more). However, this is well known and need not be an object of speculation here. For example: âThe Germansâ throw away Their shields and built Pavese instead, but equestrian archers with pigtails, there was still none. As Dan said, Bohemia was an important and influential part of the German Realm. Not only noble people but also many simple artisans and settlers came to the end of the 14th century to Bohemia and German and Czech languages ââwere relatively equal. Even the mentioned Wenceslas Bible is written in German and King Wenceslas was a German from Nuremberg, I think. Mentioned only for fashion, not for nationalism, for sure!! Because Crash-Lord has once again asserted that there were so few sources, today I sat down and researched the whole evening. In contrary, there are quite much sources even! I even found a book in the deep of my bookshelves that I had completely forgotten: âSigismund rex et imperator 1387-1437â with many many interesting research-approaches and sources. Material for month of work. Taken all together, I can say in all clarity that there are only marginal differences in fashion. Not more than local differences in different regions of Germany for example. Some unusual hats, beards and mustaches a little more, but on the whole it seems pretty comparable. Apart from legitimate desire what all would be even more exciting and interesting, the wester-approach IMHO is the right one. I say that not because I am an âextremistâ but because I took a long look at the books.
You should fill many threads here with your insights @loksley
Iâd love to hear more about the topic and others, really. I just seperate a good discussion on the board from actual expectations how the game should look or feel like.
Good to hear, but not easy to beleve 
Do not worry, this is (hopefully) my last posting for this topic. There are still some things in this game which are more important to me; clothes for instance.
I donât want to force myself to anyone. But like you, I have the impression I could possibly change something in this development stage which is maybe in a few weeks already impossible. So I just had to try it.
This is IMHO the way to integrate your east-european influence in the game:
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could maybe avoid clipping issues by hangning quiver on lower back side of waist where arms hardly go. donât know if animation exist there as well.
Robin Doesnt care, Warhorse, do it as you want
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Nice Picture, one of my childhood-heroes!
One last point I said before in an other thread:
If the most will not care, why not do the historical thing for the few who cares? The greater benefit from that could be a more consistent overall picture and that Warhorse could say âthe game is historical correct as far as we could do thatâ with no remorse.
The answer could be for instance:
- We already finished it and it would be too expensive and time consumting to change it. (How much is historical realism worth? Would it put the game/other cool features in risk?)
- We try/talked about it and there were strong technical complications (like in this case!!!) and it would be too expensive/not worth the efford.
- We didnât know that this was not historic⊠(too late!
) - We do not want that, because too many people moaning around and didnât like the game to be âtoo much authenticâ and those historical-extremists are just annoying.
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Yes, stop it. One thing is argue and discuss about history, and the other thing is insisting ad nauseum to implement it.
They told you why. Iâm sure that if they can do it at some point, they will. At least we will be able to mod it so stop whining about this, please.
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I could imagine that there is less noise when going out for a hunt having the arrows on the back. The only reason for me to have it on the back. Havent read everything in here, 140 posts is too much, so sry if it was mentioned before.
@loksley I think you donât do Warhorse justice here. I think they really want to deliver a good display how medieval really was in 1400 in Bohemia. They want to deliver on that whereever it is possible but they also have to take into account what is possible with the tech, skills and money they have. I believe Dan would personally love to make a 100% realistic game but in video game development you have to make compromises, especically if you have limited time and funds (which is quite often the case). Dan already explained to us why they put the quiver on the back and itâs not because they think that it is historically accurate or the âbest possible optionâ concerning realism. Itâs just that the âbest possible optionâ concerning realism would require a lot of additional work and would cause problems in the technical execution of the game which is far worse than a small change or âfailureâ in their realisitic vision. Itâs not that Warhorse hated reenactors or thought that they are annoying or anything. Annoying is imo only the pushy attitude of some people sometimes to persuade Warhorse to do it their way at whatever costs.
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This is a hybrid that would work too I suppose, but letâs not beat the dead horse too much anymore. I quite fancy back quivers.
I know that this wonât help to developers, but I think itâs related so to anyone inerested, this is picture from Bohemia 1340, Velislavova bible ( page 117r ). Two men wearing quivers (notice different arrow tips).
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