The myth of arrow quivers on the back

They also use composite bows (at least the right one)… :stuck_out_tongue:

They look gay allright …

1 Like

what you can see here very good is, that in this type of quiver, especially in those for bolts, the arrows/bolts are in it with the arrowhead to the top. The quiver gets wider at the bottom, to give room for the feathers. Little detail that can be easily overseen.

Was a nice pleasant conversation until you came along throwing words like “hate” and “extremists” around. You brought the hate.

At least the right quiver is round and covers the entire arrow with the tip upwards which is a quite good indication that its origins lied in the Middle East or in Hungary (the whole form of the quiver looks like that). The Hungarian Magyar and especially the Cuman weaponry was almost entirely inspired by the riding nomads of the Middle East and Asia and not by central European innovations and techniques. The design of bows and quivers was probably brought to Hungary by the Cumans in the 12. century. Before that the design is at least known from the Tartars. English longbow archers for example used an arrow bag in battle at the time with the arrow tips downwards and another design (someone published a picture and description of the arrow bag above). And often they apparently just put arrows in their belt without any quiver if needed.

So both the quivers and the bows in the picture have an “Asian” design originally made for mounted combat by nomads and not a European design. By the way, the quiver shown in the picture wasn’t really made for combat/battle but for transportation. Often you could close the quiver to protect arrows from getting wet and stuff. In an actual battle situation the mounted archers from the Middle East and Hungary used another quiver, some sort of a stand-by quiver. It’s even very likely that they used up to three quivers in battle since unlike the infantry English archers for example they couldn’t just get new arrows directly in battle (brought to them by servants) and so they had to take as much arrows with them on horseback as possible. That’s the design of such a stand-by quiver (which shows quite some similarities with quivers from the far East like medieval China…):

Edit: It could quite possibly be that Bohemia as the political and cultural centere of the HRE in 1400 brought together and mixed different types of weapons and weapon designs from various places and cultural backgrounds. So far I saw both Central/Western European and Eastern European (mainly Hungarian) influences in comtemporary paintings. I think that’s great for Warhorse and for us as gamers since that would result in a bigger pool of possibilites and options concerning weapon design. :wink:

Keep it civil gents. Everyone is welcome here.

2 Likes

Which centuries you have in mind?

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/horseback/Cheng%20Ziyi.htm :wink:

Slightly OT, but just to those saying that medieval art wasn’t representational: It most certainly was, at least to a certain extant. Ancient art, just like modern art, often used visual shorthand for common motifs. Or they did it simply for the heck of it. Here is a great example. In the basilica of Assisi, there is this painting attributed to Giotto (L’Omaggio dell’uomo semplice), depicting the Temple of Minerva and the tower of the communal palace:

These two structures exist more or less unchanged to this day (The merlons on the tower are more modern, and the buildings to the right of the temple and the left of the tower were built after the painting, which dates roughly to 1295-1299).

So while the buildings are recognizable, and show architectural details which were in style at the time, there was definitely a high level of stylization in ancient art. Medieval art hardly aspires to the same level of ‘realism’ and accuracy as say, art from the Dutch Golden Age.

This isn’t to discount the validity of art history as a source for reconstructing visual details of the past, but it’s to remind us to cross check it with both the written historical record and the actual surviving archaeological evidence.

Back on topic, this is something that has me torn. I feel the evidence provided makes it clear that wearing the quiver on the hip was in vogue at the time the game is set in. While it’s not unrealistic to assume that some people did sling their quiver across their back, or even prefer to use it that way, I don’t think it would be entirely representative of the period.

While Dan’s example of reusing older clothing is perfectly valid and is something that should always be kept in mind when discussing the past, the issue is that as a game KCD will be a representation of the past rather than a complete reconstruction. It would therefore be more ‘accurate’ to show the most common preference of the period. Think of this as a counter example: If you were making a period piece set in New York circa 1999, would you make all the cars on the streets be from the 1960’s? People still drive around cars from the 60’s to this day. So while it wouldn’t be unrealistic to see a 1964 Ford Mustang in 1999 New York, it wouldn’t be representative of the time if a large percentage of the cars were 1964 Mustangs, and none of them were 1996 Toyota Camry’s (or whatever).

On the other hand, I can totally understand the issues with the technical/design difficulties! If there is no way around them, then I’m not really terribly bothered about it. Mainly because I know now you guys are aware that it is an issue, and the decision you made was purely to make the game work. It’s not a decision born out of ‘ignorance’. It would be worse if you guys did something completely unrealistic, like tying the arrows to their forehead or something because you thought it looked cool! Or sliding wrist blades…cough

Maybe you could revisit it later, once the rest of the game is done, and once the swords are fully implemented? Maybe someone in the team might accidentally find a good solution. Would you guys implement it then, if it was no longer a technical/design issue?

1 Like

After Dan’s explanation, this topic has become just discussion of this problem among readers. For me at least.
It’s fun and informative. I thank Wenceslaus and Loksley per new images. Many of I have not seen before.
About the game … look at the next update and maybe see something new. :smile:

3 Likes

I remember this mod from the Skyrim Nexus
Belt-Fastened Quivers
Just a demonstration of a compromise between historical accuracy and animation/modelling convenience.

while i think it’s possible to make it work, i think it’s ultimately q/a issue. skyrim movement and actions are pretty basic, while kcd’s movements are more complex and varied. the technical problem of clipping would still be too blatant to ignore.

How on earth are you supposed to reach for those arrows without dislocating your shoulder first? Hahahaha

Good point. I’ve tried it with a 31" arrow, both with hand-palm facing me and facing away. It works (pull arrow through the belt, grabbing it by the arrow head), but in one go it’s a rather awkward movement (even with my long arms; I’m standing 6 ft. 3"). So I suppose it was done in two movements rather than one, which makes sense because that makes for easier nocking. This seems to have been a common method of carrying arrows into a dynamic battle among English archers (see center archer in picture as example).

1 Like

First of all, that’s a good topic and i am glad to see that many archer-lovers here. :slight_smile: I’ve almost look every post, every picture and here is my opinion: According to the pictures there are different types of attaching quivers. Both types have advantages and disadvantages. When you move around too much you better use quiver at back because quiver that attached to belt is immense nuisance when you are moving, jumping, climbing, running etc. And, what about back quivers. As you said; “You can’t see how many arrows in your quiver and most likely fumble when trying to reach them aswell.” Quivers depends on the archers. So, they must be optional. Also, there are tons of archer types in medieval times for example hunters, assassins, battleground archers, elite archers etc. and they all have to wear different types and ways of equipment (even arrowheads do huge differences). As i mentioned before it depends the archer! Furthermore, If we are going to help to dev. to make the game tottally realistic then we have to calculate every possibilities. For example, in the pictures there are few guys which are using the bow with right hand and i think this must be optional aswell.

(English isn’t my native language, so i am sorry if I’ve made a mistake.)

After viewing the book miniatures I think that hunters are often not used the quivers. :slight_smile:
How many arrows hunter can release to animal until he had fled into the forest? One, maybe two - if a hunter shoots quickly and there is possibility for second shot. Why carry a lot of arrows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUIqUdfkbYmCGM-YRmk28zCg&v=bsXvodDn5JM # t = 85
Nice a fragment of video, rabbit quickly runs and there are lots of trees and bushes where he can hide.
It would be great to see in the game hunting with the possibility of persecution of wounded animals and picking up of arrows. And the opportunity to sneak quiet at a distance of shot. :blush:

I bet most people have seen this guy

Lars Andersen: a new level of archery: https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk

Holding spare arrows in hand ready for shooting or melee attack looks realistic…

ready to melee attack with arrows in hand? ok

They should really change the name of that video to “Lars Andersen a new level of bullshit”. You can pretty much discount anything he says with the exception of a few things.

I mean you can stab an opponent with the spare arrows in your hand :smile:

I have noted that a lot of people have strong opinions about this guy and his you-tube video.
Haha, since I have no experience with bows and arrows and quivers I simply thought it “looked cool and practical” :sunglasses: