The nature of wounds and their effect on the body

Combat system
#1

This is a thread about wounds. The nature of wounds in reality and their effects on the body, and also how the wound and injury system could work in this game.
I will provide some information:

According to this article http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php, (this is slightly paraphrased, with terminology altered)
“Death from stabbing and incising (cutting or slashing) wounds is mainly brought about in five ways: massive bleeding, air in the bloodstream, suffocation, air in the chest cavity, and infection. Of these, bleeding out is the most common, with bleeding confined principally to the body cavity because stabbing wounds tend to close after the weapon is withdrawn. The amount of blood loss necessary to disable totally a man varies widely and may range from as little as one-half to as much as three litres.”

Not to forget a split skull of course, and I would like to say something about infection. If you survive getting stabbed in the guts for a while, poo in your blood may kill you.

#George Silver 1599

George silver really didn’t like the Italian rapier, and preferred English short swords.

"And again, the thrust being made through the hand, arm, or leg, or in many places of the body and face, are not deadly, neither are they maims, or loss of limbs or life, neither is he much hindered for the time in his fight, as long as the blood is hot: for example:

I have known a gentleman hurt in rapier fight, in nine or ten places through the body, arms, and legs, and yet has continued in his fight, & afterward has slain the other, and come home and has been cured of all his wounds without maim, & is yet living. But the blow being strongly made, takes sometimes clean away the hand from the arm, has many times been seen(12). Again, a full blow upon the head or face with a short sharp sword, is most commonly death. A full blow upon the neck, shoulder, arm, or leg, endangers life, cuts off the veins, muscles, and sinews, perishes the bones: these wounds made by the blow, in respect of perfect healing, are the loss of limbs, or maims incurable forever.

And yet more for the blow: a full blow upon the head, face, arm, leg, or legs, is death, or the party so wounded in the mercy of him that shall so wound him. For what man shall be able long in fight to stand up, either to revenge, or defend himself, having the veins, muscles, sinews of his hand, arm, or leg clean cut asunder? Or being dismembered by such wound upon the face or head, but shall be enforced thereby, and through the loss of blood, the other a little dallying with him, to yield himself, or leave his life in his mercy?(13)

12 A blow cuts off the hand, the arm, the leg, and sometimes the head.

13 He that gives the first wound with a strong blow, commands the life of the other."

#Something else

“The first thing I did, once within the guns, was to cut clean off the hand of a Russian gunner who was holding up his sponge against me. He fell across the gun carriage, glaring savagely; but I cared little for that, and I had seen too much in the first few minutes of the ‘charge’ to soften me. Bodies and limbs scattered in fragments, or smashed and kneaded together, and blood splashed right onto my face were now no novelty. I had now my hands full of work, I can assure you.” (He was a cavalryman with a sword who had charged at men armed with rifles and cannons)

''No less than eighteen hundred of them were computed to fall upon the field of battle. When the day returned, the Highlanders went and took a view of the field of battle, where the dreadful effects of their fury appeared in many horrible figures. The enemy lay in heaps almost in the order they were posted, but so disfigured with wounds, and so hashed and mangled, that even the victors could not look upon the amazing proofs of their own agility and strength without surprise and horror. Many had their heads divided into two halves by one blow; others had their skulls cut off above the ears by a back-stroke, like a night cap. Their thick buff belts were not sufficient to defend their shoulders from such deep gashes as almost disclosed their entrails. Several pikes, smallswords, and the like weapons were cut quite through; and some that had skull caps had them so beat into their brains that they died upon the spot. The Highlanders paid dearly for their victory [about 600]; but it was remarked that few or none of them were killed after they drew their swords, and that the greatest part of them fell within a few paces of their enemy when they received the last fire, before they themselves discharged; after which, their loss was inconsiderable."

#Wounds to the head in particular:

‘‘Stromeyer wisely held that the sharp sabre of an Afghan might split the skull and brain of his enemy without rendering him instantly hors de combat; while the blunt and heavy weapon of an English dragoon, which could not penetrate a skull and which caused a relatively small laceration of the brain, might instantly disable him’’

King Harold Godwinson was shot in the eye with an arrow but it didn’t kill him, a Norman knight did.
King Henry V (I think) was shot in the face with an arrow and had it removed and survived. Honey was used as an antiseptic.
A scot was shot in the face and had the arrow removed. It went through both cheeks and stayed there.

''Colonel Dalrytnple White, who commanded the Inniskillings, in the thick of the fray saw a sight that impressed itself upon his memory, and was never effaced. He had just received a heavy sabre cut, which cleft his helmet and penetrated to his skull. The force of the blow tumbled him forward half-dazed. As he raised his head he saw right in front of him a fair-haired, handsome young Russian officer—a mere lad of seventeen…"
Reference 1

‘’…when he [A Scott] leapt forward across the watercourse and plunged his sword into the horse’s belly. The animal fell down, and his rider was immediately hewn in pieces by the enraged Serjeant, who, In the act of stabbing the horse, had been cut in the head by the horseman’s sabre, into the very brain. He bound his head fast with a handkerchief; otherwise, as he says, he verily believes it would have fallen to pieces."
Reference 2

''Some fearful sabre cuts were de-livered. I saw one man with his head cloven to the chin, through helmet and all, so that the head appeared in two flaps; another with his arm lopped off, as if it had been done by a butcher’s cleaver; and a third having a deep gash into the brain from behind, severing the head nearly in two; and yet this unfortunate man was alive, and several times sat Up in great agony, actually holding his head together with both hands." (After the British light brigade and Cossack cavalry fought each other and the light brigade broke through)
Reference 3

#My opinion

I would like it if people can receive wounds that do not kill them instantly but that they collapse and perhaps die of later, once they lose too much blood, and if a man loses the use of a leg and falls over, he will still try and fight, and things like that.
I think serious damage to the brain or heart should kill any man, enraged or not.

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#2

Fascinating read. Knowledge is power.

#3

That was a good read.
I agree with the idea of having a more dynamic damage system on yourself as well as the others living things around you. (humans and animals)
As well as having different responses to certain damage, maybe some will continue to fight, others lay down in pain and maybe some are able to skulk off and heal from they’re injuries.

1 Like
#4

Very interesting post. Wounding provides a mechanic which I believe could see the differentiation of KCD from other contemporary FPS/RPG’s. A slightly more complex wounding system would align nicely with what has already been described of the combat system so far. Such a system could make use of visual cues and audio rather than the typical reliance of HUD icons and text to notify the player of their present condition, e.g swaying from blood loss or small visual artifacts when nearing unconsciousness. A grisly part of the game but one that could definitely have a massive impact by conveying a serious tone to combat rather than a ‘hack-n-slash’ feeling of invincibility common in the way many other games implement combat.

3 Likes
#5

when talking about wounds this could be interesting for you:
its taken from ‘‘the armor from the battle at wisby’’
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=3225
don’t get the graphic wrong, its an average of wounds on all skeletons. so it naturally only shows damage to the bone.

and some evidence what medieval weapons were capable of: (also from the wisby mass-graves)


as you can clearly see it was in some cases necessary to smash the skull of someone who had already taken much damage, and that an arrow in the head not necessarily kills. some of the skull damage may be most probably be inflicted by the dane-axe

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#6

Jan ŽIžka, leader of the Hussites and also one of the best war leaders of all times (he never lose a battle), lost his second eye by arrow while conquering castle Rábí. He survived, become blind and still led his forces until his death.

About injuries in the game - i would be satisfied with something like system in Fallout - broken arms, legs, different animations, worse handling weapons in that case, etc.

2 Likes
#7

#Skeletons found buried in Stirling castle

Facial reconstructions of the knight and the woman:

''Skeleton 148: Male aged 26-35 years. Height 168cm or 5’7”. There is a 7.1% chance he died between 1324-45AD but an 88.3% likelihood it was 1392-1450AD. A robust man, previously examined and identified as probably being a knight. A blade injury to his forehead which had healed some time before death show he was no stranger to violence. He had also suffered injury to his two front upper teeth. The teeth died but would still have been in place at the time of death. The blow could have been from an accident, or a violent encounter. A corroded iron arrow head was found close to his spine. Unfortunately the bones of his spine are not well preserved and no evidence of any injury could be seen. He may have died as a result of a soft tissue injury or haemorrhaging after being shot by the arrow – but it is also possible that the arrowhead was a chance inclusion in the grave."

''The angle and nature of the fatal facial blow suffered by the knight may indicate that he was on the ground when he was struck."

"They were part of a group of 12 skeletons, some highly fragmentary, which were discovered.
Among them was a female, probably buried some time in the 13th century, who had two neat, square holes through her skull which were consistent with blows from a war hammer. "

''Skeleton 539: Female aged 36-45. Height 161cm or 5’4”. There is a 51.9% chance she died 1270-1324AD and 43.5% that it was 1344-94AD. Robust, with strong muscle insertions on her arms and legs. Her spine had a developmental anomaly, but this probably did not affect her in life. Skeleton 539 sustained several injuries to skull around the time she died. There are two rectangular shaped holes in the top of her head. The holes are larger on the inside than the outside, which indicates they were made when the bone was still ‘wet’ – had the ability to bend under tension. Skeleton 539 has 10 peri-mortem fractures to the right side of her skull, caused by two or more blows to the side of the head. The rectangular perforations suggest the attacker was above the woman – perhaps on horseback while she was on foot, or the blows to the side of her head could have brought her to the ground before the two rectangular penetrating injuries were sustained."

This gives details about the skeletons:
http://www.primarytimes.net/edinburgh_stirling_skeletons.php

#Pain

I have read some people say that if people are injured in a fight, they will scream and clutch the wound and just let themselves be finished off. That is a counter-intuitive thing to do.
If natural selection was allowed to influence human behaviour in fights to the death, we would expect there to be a fighting state in which the man does not feel pain and fights at his full capacity, with more strength than he is capable of using when calm, and with a sped-up brain.
People like this would surely have an advantage against people who give up at their first injury. It also seems nature has made us this way.

I used to know someone who knows someone who got into a fight with a mugger who had a knife. He won the fight and only afterwards noticed his tummy wound because he felt it was wet.

When not in a fight, paper cuts and bumping into corners hurts, but when in a fight, punches do not.

I have not included any references here, but I tell you that in every account I remember reading, the injuries themselves were mentioned, but I have never read of someone fighting less well because he had decided to cry in pain instead. You can be shot with a rifle and not be in agony, just poking your finger through the hole or asking someone if you’ve been shot.

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#8

I’ve had my nose broken in a fight before. That didnt stop me, but let me tell you, I was feeling it for 2 weeks after!

#9

Great thread, I was just about to make one myself about this very subject before I found this thread.

I’d love to see wounds implemented realistically in the game and have them alter the behavior of the AI.
Call me perverse but I would love to hear the bones on my enemies break, and them shouting out in agony afterwards, and see their broken limb kind of “ragdolling” about to a mild degree. I’d also love to see bleeding from/on the enemy, could maybe be a way of tracking wounded animals as well?

I want to see reactions to the things I’m doing, and the things the AI is doing. I want to gradually break down wooden shields, I want to be able to dent armors, dismember my enemies and break their bones.

I’d also love it if AIs had various reactions perhaps to some degree defined by their ranking within the game. A knight might not be wavered by the sight of his comrades being dismembered or wounded, but I bet if you were ambushed by a gang of bandits and cut off one of their comrades heads the rest of them might just flee.

And maybe have different ranking units within the military, like militia-men, archers, armored knights, ect all with their own unique subset of stats that could alter their behaviour, like courage, aggression and whatever you can think of.

I’d also, believe it or not, love to be able to survive a fight after losing a limb, a finger, hand or arm.

#10

I believe the arrow that went through Henry V’s face nearly pierced something vital at the base of the skull, if the arrow had gone slightly further through him he would have been killed outright. I remember reading something about it quite a while ago

#11

I feel you may need to differentiate between NPCs and the player on this one. Keep wounding specific areas of the body for enemies as this will add to the immersion. For the PC however Warhorse has to be careful not to frustrate the common gamer. A slice of the RPG community (myself included) would enjoy realistic consequences of wounding but the average gamer might not.

#12

Was going to start a similar thread, but Ill just bump this one instead.
Last thing I want to see in Kingdome Come is 2 states - alive and kicking ass and dead. IMO there should be a few “wounded” states and a disabled state where the character is not yet dead, but cant fight.

#13

I think that it could work for the game :wink: !
Maybe damage to the brain / heart should not kill the character at the first hit… maybe after 3 hits ??

#14

I think that if we make the damage system too realistic you will have to be a master swordsman to survive the game, that an opponent doesn’t hit you once in a very critical lethal spot seems very unlikely.

#15

True, but there are difficulty levels for that. While I enjoyed relaxed gaming on normal difficulty many people enjoy insane difficulties, which will be waaay more fun with (more or less) realistic wound behavior.

#16

I can’t do anything but agree to that, you’re right.

#17

Really enjoyed reading this! I’d love to see some of the suggested features in-game.

#18

It would be a real shame if the game just had an HP bar or something similar, and I think you can see it in the combat update video, I hope it’s just a placeholder because it would break the realism. Probably you can find inspiration in the health system in Dwarf Fortress.

#19

Yes, I’ve seen a documentary about this, it was very close to piercing the main artery in the neck and some of the nerves that control vital functions (i.e. respiration)
This episode was important because it forced a surgeon to invent the arrow extractor, which was used for the first time and with success on Henry V, this could even be an interesting way to approach the healing of arrow wounds in the game :slight_smile:

#20

Would like to point out that lost limb == equal insta-death (unlike what we have in many video games). There really should be a “disabled but not dead” state.

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