I believe that the church would make a significant contribution to the story and setting of the game.
As your friend or foe.
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And please, don´t forget beer!!! 
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I was pleased to see in the livestream where the local religious authority piped up about Henry’s parents going to purgatory and then the lords proceeding to verbally bat him around a little. The role of religion and the church in society should be a part of the living world this game is creating. Whether you like it or not, the church was a cornerstone of society in those times and therefore should included.
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To my knowledge, was the main period of witch-hunting in later years (1500-1700) only sporadically earlier and more in Spain, Germany and Austria. This heretic was the main goal, less herbalists and healers.
For fear and superstition, the Church, however, has always been taken care of, the basis for such practices and a lucrative source of income.
Knowledge is power. the church knew this of course and was able to keep so long control over Europe because it was THE collector and censor for all kind of classic scrolls and writings from other parts of the world.
Besides that many couldn’t afford books anyway not had use for them as there was no school system. Books were incredibly expensive and very often represented one or several peoples life and devotion in those leather bound treasures which often enough got owned by some noble like today a person keeps a Ferrari, meaning they owned the book but no necessarily could read it like modern day collectors hording things but having no time or knowledge to actually put them to use.
The church outlawed many books and antique scrolls and the few copies which existed. Monasteries and Convents were islands of knowledge and their libraries were often enough the most precious treasure you could imagine.
There’s a good reason why the church feared Johannes Gutenberg’s invention of the printing press as that was the beginning of the industrialization of books like many centuries later organized industry and technology industrialized firearms by introducing standardization of production, calibers and single ammunition pieces.
(A post from me about early gunpowder weapons
So yes, as this game is all about historical accuracy the clerics must be part of the game world even most players will very likely never interact with anything higher then a monk or nun as the higher clergy was power oriented and just dealt with those nobles which they needed for their interests.
Basically a ‘state’ in many other ‘states’, rounding every patchwork of ruled land from barony up to kingdoms as ‘state’ in this example.
There will be no people trying to convert you in the game or other more modern nonsense which we remember from the missionary phase centuries later.
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You can hardly claim in all seriousness that the Roman Catholic Church controlled Europe. In the right hands it could possess a formidable amount of religious and political clout, but this does not constitute the same thing as control, and indeed in the right hands a state could survive and even thrive despite the Papacy’s wrath. Certainly (in but one example) the inhabitants of the Holy Roman Empire during the reign’s of both Frederick I Barbarossa and his grandson Frederick II would be surprised to hear that the Roman pontiff enjoyed much control over the Reich.
But more importantly, the Roman Church was responsible not only for preserving and collecting books (as you rightly say), but also for making these works accessible to a larger audience. Secular aristocrats, middle-class burghers and lay clerks (to name but a few non-ecclesiastical sections of society - more on that later) often prided themselves on their literacy and their skills were highly sought after and prized.
Actually, this is the era when we first see the rise of systematized education. Indeed, the first universities like those of Bologna, Paris, Oxford, Salerno, Montpellier and Padua all emerged in this era and ensured the spread of knowledge far beyond anything that had been seen in the days of the Roman empire. Likewise, smaller grammar schools (often attached to parishes) helped contribute to a growing literate middle-class. Again, its not nearly so expansive as the reach of education is these days, but it was a whole lot bigger than anything that had existed in the Roman empire.
Books were certainly harder to manufacture in the days before the printing press, yet that hardly justifies this sweeping generalization. Not all books were massively thick and carefully illuminated tomes; such expensive projects were indeed difficult to create and a comparative rarity, but they are hardly representative of the majority of books produced during the period. Knights frequently read (and even composed) books on subjects like combat, horsemanship, hunting and poetry, whilst masons and other engineers had to be familiar with the geometry of Euclid, which was essential knowledge for designing everything from castles to Gothic cathedrals to siege engines; navigators the geography of Ptolemy; clerks, mathematics and philosophy; doctors, the medical works of Galen and Hippocrates. Even poor, isolated hermits (such as the 12th century English hermitess Christina of Marykate) could often be found in possession of at the very least a psalter. Literacy and access to knowledge may not have been nearly as widespread as they are today, but they were certianly not the sole purview of the Church and it was a skill that was greatly valued in medieval society by both clergy and laymen.
The truly expensive and hard-to-get books were the massive and delicately illuminated Bibles. Such works were indeed incredibly time and resource consuming, but when completed they were the pride and joy of any collection. Those kept in the great cathedrals and monasteries were often put on public display on a special lectern where their beauty could be appreciated; after all, what point was there in going to such effort to create works of inspiring religious beauty if none could see them?
Eh, I’m guessing you’re thinking of the ban on Aristotle’s works of natural philosophy at the University of Paris in the 13th century, a ban which was short-lived and which had no authority beyond the confines of that single institution. Other, similar bans were occasionally enacted, but often had little effect and were often rescinded in short order. In general, however, the clerics of the Roman Catholic church was perfectly happy to translate and preserve the works of pagan philosophers and later Arabic commentators; after all, had not St. Augustine called such writings “the gold of the Egyptians”, something to be valued by Christians? Indeed, so highly valued were the works of Greek philosophers that it was not an uncommon sight to see them depicted prominently on the edifices of churches (see this portrait of Aristotle from Chartres Cathedral, for example: http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4110/5168047158_c900ae0429_o.jpg) The works of writers like William of Conches, Albertus Magnus, Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, John de Sacrobosco (to name but a few) were all informed by the works of the ancient Greek philosophers and were widely read and discussed and nobody tried to ban their efforts to find a synthesis between the knowledge of the ancient philosophers and Christian theology. We should also consider that post-Reformation Protestants were every bit as capable of issuing indexes of banned books and repressing printing presses during tumultuous times; it is hardly fair to act as if such occurrences were solely a Catholic trait.
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It’s also hardly fair to go medieval on my tail for such a complex topic as I just picked some examples and struggled with my limited English…If someone sees those as universal then that is their good right if they want to but of course not very smart. It’s very difficult to comment something in a forum without simplifying a bit some points or it would be most difficult to finish a posting. My point was simply to express it how it was seen from the pope and his clergy.
You obviously got much deeper into the matter and I appreciate the good contribution to shed more light on the topic. Sure, they needed educated people as you can’t rule with illiterate people. For centuries they tried to balance to control the knowledge taught but with time it was unavoidable that they could not forever choose what the people to think.
Every ruler faced the issue that he needed educated people to rule but faced the same issues as in m y example where I was just focusing on the cath. church and its higher clergy.
Love it. I hope the church is not always portrayed in bad light in the game as in actuality it was not completely or even mostly bad. There’s another topic on this that was posted a week or so ago that has a lot more discussion on it.
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Wow, what a competent community! Great!
Think the “lower ranks” of the clergy were already mostly good and hardworking people, especially the female. Who so brews good beer, can not be all bad;) That the sun revolves around the earth and the earth is a disc - against my better judgment and calculations already from the ancient world - would be to forgive yes, if it was not killed people would. It was this obstinacy and duplicity, greed for wealth and power, coupled with the monopoly of information (before Gutenberg) that has shaped the reputation of an institution that nothing sells as “faith,” There is always the purpose which justifies the means …
Wau, was für eine kompetente Community ! Großartig!
Denke, die “unteren Ränge” des Klerus waren schon meist gute und fleißige Menschen, speziell die weiblichen. Wer so gutes Bier braut, kann nicht ganz schlecht sein, Das sich die Sonne um die Erde dreht und die Erde eine Scheibe ist - wider besseres Wissen und Berechnungen schon aus der Antike - wäre ja zu verzeihen, wenn dafür nicht Menschen umgebracht worden wären. Es war diese Verbohrtheit und Doppelzüngigkeit, die Gier nach Reichtum und Macht gepaart mit dem Monopol an Information (vor Gutenberg), die den Ruf einer Institution geprägt hat, die weiter nichts verkauft als “Glauben” Es ist immer der Zweck, der die Mittel heiligt…
Would be interesting, the game is set right in the middle of the Papal schism. Some good material for writing in that event alone. Anyway it will have to be touched upon as the Chruch was into almost everything. Land, war, money, salvation. The entity was omnipresent - both big business and the the backbone of the society as whole.
Hell not to mention the brewing politically nationalistic and religious Hussite movement.
Definitely needs religion, even if it’s not the church. It’s been such a defining factor in our history that to omit it would be a crying shame.
I apologize if my tone was rather overly aggressive. I didn’t know you weren’t a native English speaker, and I understand the difficulty in striking the right balance between readability and historical accuracy. There’s a difference, though, between simplifying something so that it can be easily understood and fit reasonably into a forum post and saying something that is factually untrue. Asserting that medieval people horded books as prizes but never bothered to read them, that there was no education system or that the Roman Catholic Church tried to suppress knowledge and so on and so forth are all common stereotypes about the period that can be shown to be false.
A stance I disagree with, for reasons already outlined.
And I strongly disagree with this assessment for reasons that (yet again) I have already outlined in my first post on this thread. I don’t see the need yet to dig further into it at the moment and (I’ve got to run to class in just a bit), but I think your interpretation leaves a lot to be desired and does not do justice to the vibrant intellectual culture that emerged during this time period. There’s no need to resort to shallow stereotypes as a substitute for reality.
of course it’s going to be the church. do you think rastafarianism is going to pop out in the middle of bohemia 1403?
I would kind of like to attend a church service of the time. If anything, a church would serve as an easy way to meet everyone in the towns. Not being seen at church would actually be damaging to your reputation unless you had good reason.
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Anything regarding the church and religion is a very touchy subject.
Warhorse would get more flak from that then they would from nudity.
I agree with all of you, i just think that warhorse will exclude alot of it just because of how the modern day religious fanatics would negatively impact the cause.
It suck, but its the truth.
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you could have the church but leave out the religion as it had more to do with politics then worship.
I apologize if my tone was rather overly aggressive. I didn’t know you weren’t a native
English speaker, and I understand the difficulty in striking the right balance between
readability and historical accuracy. There’s a difference, though, between simplifying
something so that it can be easily understood and fit reasonably into a forum post and
saying something that is factually untrue. Asserting that medieval people horded books as
prizes but never bothered to read them, that there was no education system or that the
Roman Catholic Church tried to suppress knowledge and so on and so forth are all
common stereotypes about the period that can be shown to be false.
I guess it’s ok to trigger a protective reflex by some what they are very fond of and I should have expected this as I am afraid there will be a lot of similar exchanges coming up down the road in the making of the game.
You are right that simplifying can produce a problem in lack of diversity and differentiation but generalization is also not a good way to refute a point as it can easily lead to ridicule the other.
I did NOT say that the church rule Europe but it would be naive to believe that the church had no clear ambitions to stretch out their influence as far as they could.
I did NOT say that nobles give a damn about reading as they had after all to run their properties how big or small they might be. A lot of people know Sir Walter’s Ivanhoe, The Nibelungenlied, the works of Hildegard of Bingen, the Divina Commedia from Dante Alighieri and so many, many more. But not everybody had the time and resources to go to those universities and had classes from local clergy like monks or other literate people which were available to them.
I did NOT say that there was ANY education system, everybody knows the famous universities all over Europe. I was referring to a public school system which allows us today more or less reach a high level of literacy.
I did NOT say that horded books as there were not that many precious books around. But in a time where paper and writing is far from common creating book was a much more time consuming project where writers spend often a long, long time on, some maybe most of their life which made those books practically invaluable, at least to those who could see the value of the content and appreciate it as poor people had other issues to worry about then to read but to stay simply alive.
Bearhug67 said:
My point was simply to express it how it was seen from the pope and his clergy.
A stance I disagree with, for reasons already outlined.
Bearhug67 said:
Sure, they needed educated people as you can’t rule with illiterate
people. For centuries they tried to balance to control the
knowledge taught but with time it was unavoidable that they could
not forever choose what the people to think.
And I strongly disagree with this assessment for reasons that (yet again) I have already outlined in my first
post on this thread. I don’t see the need yet to dig further into it at the moment and (I’ve got to run to class in
just a bit), but I think your interpretation leaves a lot to be desired and does not do justice to the vibrant
intellectual culture that emerged during this time period. There’s no need to resort to shallow stereotypes as a substitute for reality.
I guess I agree to strongly disagree with you, but that’s fine as I respect another opinion. It was not my intention to start a philosophical discussion or splitting hairs about a lot of details. I have to admit that my first post reflected probably a bit too strongly my feelings for institutional churches but it was not my intention to step on others feelings about it. Ignoring my personal feelings about the church do I insist that it is in the game as it was simply part of history and ignoring that would leave out a big piece of the tapestry this game tries to create.
I would even love to see down the road experimental scientists, archeologists and other researchers getting involved with the dev team to implement real research data into the game, not for interfering with those which just want to enjoy the story but at the side in a sandbox mode, allowing the sandbox character of the simulated world as a virtual playground to discuss, re-create and implement all kind of research about the medieval age like construction methods, cooking with old recipes, creating clothing and other tools used in that time and allowing later those ideas to feedback into the game.
I think the game could allow a lot of people to explore the medieval age in a safe, interesting way as not all can enjoy re-enacting events like from the SCA or other organizations which try to re-create historic research about that time. Many are not fit enough to experience he torture of the sun roasting you in your plate armor or taking a bad beating as we saw in those re-enacting fights, other have allergies and other issues. Using the game besides the game itself for stirring interest into that time and educational reasons might be a nice possibility.
I wish you anything well for your classes whatever you study and hope things work out as planned and beat you my farewell as I am not interested in an endless ping pong game.
I just want to see Warhorse doing their homework and will make a wonderful game with every detail which belongs to the time and I think Dan Vávra and his team are on the best way doing what they believe in. Congratulations to the Warhorse Studios for that marvelous kickstarter campaign ad thanks to Chris Roberts and his fan base for their additional support in the campaign.
P.S.: Can someone please tell me how to quote another post in this forum as this posting cost me a lot of time just for manual editing. Thanks.
Yes, well said Gabe…
I agree it would be AWESOME to fight against the Church…to either start or be a part of a rebel faction…
Hey, just noting that there has been a ton of replies here, did not read 'em.
Only one real request regarding the Church: for them not to be the end-all, be-all source of typical puns/abuses of power, and actually show some decent reasons why they were ‘good’. (Some village priests and so on…)
Peace.
how are these fanatics going to have an impact? war horse isn’t going to receive flak from nudity nor religion. stop fear mongering.