i was also trained with a pistol actually . quite heavily from reacting to a misfire during close combat which would involve me then drawing my side arm and continuing the engagement with the side arm
Two points from
(1) A woman who was shot 6 times, twice of that into her chest, managed to get away. Just tell me how she could run out of the establishment and quite far on the street but would not manage to shoot back in case she was armed.
(2) A guy saved a couple of people by throwing a chair at the attacker and hitting at neck. Just tell me how he could throw a chair but could not shoot him in case he was armed.
1 Like
Ill also bring real events in to this.
Feel free to search for more.
never said that once . im talking about your personal course of action in the situation . im saying with your course of action you have swiped your chances by a good amount . because you’re taking too long . i never said you couldnt stop it with the correct process
no you dont you have zero when was the last time you did training in such an event what real life experience do you have . fucking zero .
http://blog.mpro7.com/Media/Default/BlogPost/blog-home/FBI%20Training.jpg
I prefer to follow col. Jeff Cooper on that rather than your 1930s pistol shooting style training.
1 Like
of course they could of fired back when did i say they couldnt i said YOUR process of firing back took to long . with the order of reactions i gave you , you could quite easily pout rounds down on the attacker
haha ok your right and the entire worlds special forces and armed forces are wrong
As it happens, I have read quite a lot on the topic of pistol shooting.
The reason why this type of training was abandoned by most police and military forces is that it takes too much effort to train the policemen/soldiers to effectively hit the target. It is too expensive and takes too long to change it from pray and spray to effective tactic (of course unless we are talking 5 metres within a building).
If you had enough training and got to the point where you can effectively hit the target shooting from your hip - not only put on suppressive fire in his general direction - then good for you.
While for you what we are talking about is a fantasy session, I carry a gun daily and I have to know what I can and what I can’t manage. I know that under stress, I tend to do rapid fire into a very tight spot just left of the intended target. And I know I can’t hit shit from my hip.
For me, this is not some fantasy I would be playing in my head. I do have the gun and I do need to think what I can manage in real life should the worst happen (otherwise it would make no sense to carry it, after all). That’s it. Good night and good bye.
1 Like
woah not pistol from the hip . you misunderstand me . im talking about instinctive shooting you may no it as point shooting . with a rifle its done from the hip (just above level with your ribs ) not a pistol my dear
maybe you should do some practice with point shooting when your next at the range
abandoned i dont think so its used to this very day in CQB
http://firearmusernetwork.com/2009/04/01/point-shooting-vs-sight-shooting-handgun-training-problem/ nice read for you my favourite part
As such, it follows that if you have been taught only Sight Shooting for self defense use, or if the main part of your training was on Sight Shooting with minimal emphasis on Point Shooting, then you have been set up to be killed.
When did i say i had real experience? I said real world events as in there have been plenty of CC people who have stopped a shooter.
Here’s the problem with all these self defence cites. There are many different techniques devolved for shooting and self defence. There are always debates on which is the most successful. Most are effective to some degree so i refuse to listen to those sights that say “this other persons methods are going to get you killed”.
I never said there wasn’t your on a different argument all Together .
The debate in having is that adding the extra steps of ducking behind your desk and waiting for people
To get out of the way will get you killed . Because first off at such a close range the chances of that desk protecting you are very low . Second we are talkin about an active shooter . Every second you waste could mean another person dies .
Agreed but Point shooting is the quickest form of delevery accurate Fire down . It’s the way I was taught and it’s the way special forces units are taught at close range or clearing a room . So to be able
To do it well which to be honest it isn’t hard to master . Could mean life or death
So just that it is clear. First you write that one should not raise the pistol to the eye level. Then when I tell you that you can’t hit shit with pistol unless it is raised, you say you never meant shooting from hip. I think that you should make up your mind otherwise you sound like you were trained by youtube on your couch and not by your queen in the army.
Point shooting with pistol and with rifle (I have done it only with shotgun, but I suppose it is pretty much same with rifle) are very different things. As far as I am concerned, point shooting with pistol requires having the pistol at the eye level, just that all the eye focus is on the target and gun allignment is done mostly through muscle memory.
I can do that quite well with CZ 75 but much less so with the Kahr CM9. That is not only because I train with CZ much more, but also because it fits in hands perfectly, while Kahr’s tiny dimensions make it quite hard to effectively conduct point shooting and require allignment of the front sight (not allignment of sights, just front sight - target, which as you probably know is slower than point shooting, but much faster than targeted shooting).
But OK, it seems that we both had the same thing in mind. Now, let me repeat my original post for you:
As you can see, I made a difference between the process of shooting while behind cover and not yet made as a threat by the attacker and the process of shooting while drawing attention of the attacker from the very beginning.
The thing is that as long as the attacker doesn’t perceive you as a threat and doesn’t target you, and he has dozen potential other targets closer to him, you need to hit the initial double tap successfully. The moment you fire the first round you will get all of his attention so you need to make the first two rounds count. Then once he is off balance with two rounds hopefully in the chest you can either finish up with mozambique or dump the mag with point shooting.
The other possible scenario - I’ve put it as “try hitting while being shot”. If it is not clear enough for you I meant rapid fire point shooting.
I have already mentioned a couple of times that I do rapid fire drills, if not for any other reason than because they are immense fun, especially when nobody else expects it on the range and then they come to check whether you have a full auto 
If you know as much about shooting as you claim then you should be aware that you can’t do rapid fire with pistol in any other way than point shooting.
You are right generally, but in fact the only rounds that count are those that hit. With 15 + 16 in CZ it is easy to imagine that point shooting rapid fire will be successfull no matter what, but with 7 + 6 in Kahr it is very much possible that the first mag is dumped with no meaningful effect, because anything else than at least 5 rounds (short of hitting central nerve system in the neck or above) won’t stop the other guy from shooting at you.
Yes, I am not there for all the other people. They had the same possibility as me to decide a month ago they want a gun (& get the license and buy a pistol) and to decide in the morning to put it into holster instead of leaving it at home. I will help them as much as I can but not to my own demise. I can die hero for my family and close friends but I have quite a problem doing the same for complete strangers.
And of course table won’t shield you from any rounds. But the attacker first shoots what he can see/perceives as threat and only then he proceeds to find other possible targets. You are not behind the table to save your self but to gain a second or two to process the situation, draw the gun out of attacker’s sight and to make the first double tap absolutely worthy of getting all of the shooter’s attention. Yes, this means that someone will probably be shot meanwhile, but if you fail to deliver on the guy effectively and go down instead then everyone inside is probably as good as dead. As opposed to the situation when the attacker is cleared away and everyone who wasn’t shot in head/heart has quite a good chance to make it out.
I originally had the same approach to it as you do. But then I came to the “ducking” conclusion after watching quite a few videos from both training as well CCTV of real life situations. Try sitting down in a restaurant or at some public venue with all the people around and try imagining somebody coming in and opening fire. Watch a couple of videos to see the chaos that ensues. As I said, the only rounds that count are those you put into the attacker, and you definitely can’t risk shooting someone who is just trying to run away.
Of course if I am not on the far corner from the entrance & shooter I expect to be shot and the only meaningful strategy is fighting through the pain and dumping a mag on him before passing out.
This is a valid point in situation when you have uniform (a policeman on a lunch) and thus you are clearly the primary target of the attacker. Or you are happen to be very close to him and you are likely to be targeted first. Or you are entering the room and you are the only target. Those are very different situations from what we are talking about - a person with concealed weapon in a crowded establishment sitting away from the door with clear view of entrance.
FYI the guy who trained me & my GF was himself trained by special forces in Israel. I am yet to attend 2 more courses with him to finish up the complete pistol course, but point shooting by him always meant raising the gun up to eye level. (And then I’ll go for shotgun and then assault rifle courses with him).
What I meant is an aimed shot you raise to the eye , look down the sights and fire . By doing this you waste time . By this time you could of put three shots down .
Maybe some confusion . With a automatic weapon and the way I was taught you raise to rib level . And fire . After enough practice as you say muscle memory should be in place and you should be able to hit the target with a short burst of fire
With a pistol the practice changes slightly I was taught to pull out the pistol and then using your instinctive shooting put 3 rounds down while raising the weapon by around the 3rd shot depending how well drilled you are in this you will th have the weapon raised in which you can if needed glance down the sights and take more of an aimed shot .
I practiced enough on this that the first 3 rounds I discharge hit the target (most of th time ) . But even if they do not they offer valuable seconds of suppressive Fire .
So when I said do not raise the weapon and fire I meant standing there and taking an aimed first shot is hugely increasing the chances of you being shot .
The moment you move to fire you will lock in his vision and chances are he will
Switch to target you . So the first 3 rounds will make him flinch and slow down his reaction .
For this there is no set position to discharge the
3 rounds it’s simply down to The individual and when it feels right if that makes sense
I’m by no means an expert I wasnt taught to be one I was
Taught to get the job done so how I do things could be miles from how you would be taught to in a civilian environment
i was primarily trained to be the one storming the room rather than defending myself behind a table . Against a professional force your idea of not being perceived a threat would be wrong as generally each member would take a section of the room as best as possible without know the room layout so chances are you would be shot the moment you flinched for your weapon but against a lone attacker you theory of being in the corner could well be correct . But will be down to luck more than anything as to where he looks first .
Cezch troops are in afghan as well I’m afraid your nation is on our side in this shit ball
Of the middle East
1 Like
Yeah, but we didn’t send there secret service operatives in the 1980s to train Taliban/Al Qaeda in the first place.