The †roll Cave ®™

[SirWarriant]

well considering 70 million died in the 6 years before its not hard to come to the conclusion that a similar number would die in the fight between us and russia .

Not if we used Nuclear weapons to end i quickly.

dropped one of Moscow . how you going to do that exactly ? we was only able to drop one on japan because we had air superiority we didnt have that over russia im afriad

We managed to sneak 2 planes past Japans air defenses. They had heavy anti air defenses in both those cities and at least 20 zeros guarding them. Also im not sure where your getting you plane numbers from. The U.S has close to 300,000 combat air craft towards the end of the war Russia had aroudn 15,000 which they borrowed from the U.S and U.K.

you are hugely over estimating the blast range of the atom bombs of the day

No i’m really not. Close to 50,000 people were killed instantly by little boy around 30,000 more died of radiation posing that day. Lets add to the the psychological impact of knowing they can obliterate thousands of your troops in seconds.

lets stay factual here . this is the official conclusion of the discussion between US and british chiefs of staff on the fight against the USSR if it was top happen

I don’t see any mention of nuclear weapons in that.

Again im not talking about a plan. I’m simply speaking if they just went to war. A nuclear bomb would end the war.

I’m pretty sure that plan was drafted before nukes went public.

[TheDivineInfidel]

We managed to sneak 2 planes past Japans air defenses. They had heavy anti air defenses in both those cities and at least 20 zeros guarding them. Also im not sure where your getting you plane numbers from. The U.S has close to 300,000 combat air craft towards the end of the war Russia had aroudn 15,000 which they borrowed from the U.S and U.K.

at the time we dropped the bomb on japan we had air superiority over japan end of .

now what you’re proposing is flying a nuclear armed bomber from western europe over the iron curtain and over the entire of eastern europe then over major soviet cities and then over moscow and dropping the bomb . without getting shot down . or running out of fuel . thats your plan ? really ? REALLY ?

just think about that for a few more moments

[TheDivineInfidel]

No i’m really not. Close to 50,000 people were killed instantly by little boy around 30,000 more died of radiation posing that day. Lets add to the the psychological impact of knowing they can obliterate thousands of your troops in seconds.

there is more than a few thousand russians im afriad . who were not to bothered about losing 27 million people i doubt 50,000 is going to stop them .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3239, topic:21032”]
I’m pretty sure that plan was drafted before nukes went public.
[/quote] the plans were drafted at the highest level of government and never left the highest level of government until they were declassified im sure they were aware of the bombs

[SirWarriant]

at the time we dropped the bomb on japan we had air superiority over japan end of .

The plane had no escorts and fly alone over the city. Both were heavily fortified and had AA guns and at least 20 zeros guarding them.

now what you’re proposing is flying a nuclear armed bomber from western europe over the iron curtain and over the entire of eastern europe then over major soviet cities and then over moscow and dropping the bomb . without getting shot down . or running out of fuel . thats your plan ? really ? REALLY ?

You mean like after pearl harbor when American sent a fleet of bombers across the Pacific and they go through he defenses and bombed Tokyo that landed in China ? really? REALLY?

Even if they couldn’t get to the major Russian cities they could bomb Russian positions along the front.

here is more than a few thousand russians im afriad . who were not to bothered about losing 27 million people i doubt 50,000 is going to stop them .

Right and Japan was wiling to sacrifice every man women and child in a land invasion plus they were constantly flying planes in our ships for their god emperor yet 2 nukes made the surrender. Japan was easily the most fanatical of all countries during that war yet they were brought to their knees by the nukes.

the plans were drafted at the highest level of government and never left the highest level of government until they were declassified im sure they were aware of the bombs

You clearly have no idea how secret the bombs were. Only a few people even in the top level of government knew about them. The president was often even kept in the dark about them. The generals didn’t know about them until it went public.

Lets also add to the fact that the average Russian troop was very poorly trained. They were often just thrown a rifle and told run at the enemy tell they run out of ammunition.

Lets also add to the fact that a huge portion of Russia’s supplies came from the western allies. Bam they would be cut off.

[TheDivineInfidel]

Even if they couldn’t get to the major Russian cities they could bomb Russian positions along the front.

are you fully aware how many atom bombs the allies actually had at the wars end you seem to think we had hundreds .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3242, topic:21032”]
You mean like after pearl harbor when American sent a fleet of bombers across the Pacific and they go through he defenses and bombed Tokyo that landed in China ? really? REALLY?
[/quote] yes you sent a task force over and the raid did basically fuck all damage but prove a point . and the bombers that carried it out were not cable of carrying an atom bomb which required a specially designed aircraft .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3242, topic:21032”]
Right and Japan was wiling to sacrifice every man women and child in a land invasion plus they were constantly flying planes in our ships for their god emperor yet 2 nukes made the surrender. Japan was easily the most fanatical of all countries during that war yet they were brought to their knees by the nukes.
[/quote] indeed they were but russia is no japan , japan was facing complete defeat the USSR would not have been and were developing there own atom bombs .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3242, topic:21032”]
You clearly have no idea how secret the bombs were. Only a few people even in the top level of government knew about them.
[/quote] chruchill and Eisenhower knew about them they were involved in the planning of operation unthinkable .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3242, topic:21032”]
Lets also add to the fact that the average Russian troop was very poorly trained. They were often just thrown a rifle and told run at the enemy tell they run out of ammunition.

Lets also add to the fact that a huge portion of Russia’s supplies came from the western allies. Bam they would be cut off.
[/quote] HA these poorly trained troops had just butchered their way across europe and defeated arguably the most advanced military on earth like it was nothing but this stage they were very experienced crack troops you really are something else i have never met anyone with a more simplistic view on miltary strategy in all my life .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3242, topic:21032”]
Lets also add to the fact that a huge portion of Russia’s supplies came from the western allies. Bam they would be cut off.
[/quote] granted the supplies would be damaging but not war winning im afriad .

i think i will go with the generals opinion over some guy on the internet that think it would be easy to fly a bomber across the soviet union all the way to russia without being shot down by one of the thousands of russia aircraft

[SirWarriant]

UN official: US must return control of sacred lands to Native Americans

The U.N can go fuck its self. Those fucker can shut up about their lost land.

[TheDivineInfidel]

we know the feel . been trying to get us to give in to Argentina over the Falklands for years

[SirWarriant]

are you fully aware how many atom bombs the allies actually had at the wars end you seem to think we had hundreds .

We had around 10 i believe we thought we were going to have to use all of them on Japan but the power of them forced them to surrender after 2.

yes you sent a task force over and the raid did basically fuck all damage but prove a point . and the bombers that carried it out were not cable of carrying an atom bomb which required a specially designed aircraft .

Whats your point? The fact of the matter is we sent a large bomber fleet undetected and bombed Japans capitol at the height of their power.

indeed they were but russia is no japan , japan was facing complete defeat the USSR would not have been and were developing there own atom bombs .

They did not have atom bombs till the 50s. You say Japan was facing defeat yet they were all willing to die even the civilians who were training with bamboo spears. That shows how terrifying the bombs were if they were able to make them surrender.

chruchill and Eisenhower knew about them they were involved in the planning of operation unthinkable .

Churchill probably did but i doubt Eisenhower did. They told as little people as possibly. They had no reason to tell Eisenhower.

HA these poorly trained troops had just butchered their way across europe and defeated arguably the most advanced military on earth like it was nothing but this stage they were very experienced crack troops you really are something else i have never met anyone with a more simplistic view on miltary strategy in all my life .

Yes because Germany was getting attacked from 3 different fronts. They were kicking the soviets asses earlier in the war. The soviets did not train their troops well at all. They were given a gun and told to fight.
Sorry if that upsets you but its true. The American and British troops were just as expericened and they also had better training. Russia favored throwing their men at the enemy till they ran out of ammo mean while the U.S and U.K were more conservative with their men.

granted the supplies would be damaging but not war winning im afriad .

i think i will go with the generals opinion over some guy on the internet that think it would be easy to fly a bomber across the soviet union all the way to russia without being shot down by one of the thousands of russia aircraft

I am going with a generals opinion. Patton was saying it was possible before he died and Montgomery was agreeing with him. After Patton’s death support for the war against Russia quickly faded.

easy to fly a bomber across the soviet union all the way to russia without being shot down by one of the thousands of russia aircraft

I never said it would be easy. But it is possible and we did do it several times with Japan. Also your numbers are again wrong. The U.S way out numbered Russia in the air and thats not even counting the other western allies.

granted the supplies would be damaging but not war winning im afriad .

It would cripple them horribly. America was pretty much supplying the allies towards the end of the war because every other country was rubble and their factories gone.

[TheDivineInfidel]

We had around 10 i believe we thought we were going to have to use all of them on Japan but the power of them forced them to surrender after 2

nope we had 3 the third was not ready however at the time of the second drop the third was meant to be ready 18th of august another 3 ordered for September and another 3 for October . so to effectively carry out your plan you would of had to wait until September at least by which time the soviet union was digging into its new territory and the chances of getting a plan through were going from impossible to fucking impossible .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3246, topic:21032”]
They did not have atom bombs till the 50s. You say Japan was facing defeat yet they were all willing to die even the civilians who were training with bamboo spears. That shows how terrifying the bombs were if they were able to make them surrender.
[/quote] but they were facing defeat . russia wasnt . japan was preparing to die with honour russia had just crushed an empire and was at the strongest it had ever been .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3246, topic:21032”]
Eisenhower
[/quote] he did have knowledge of their existence .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3246, topic:21032”]
They were kicking the soviets asses earlier in the war. The soviets did not train their troops well at all. They were given a gun and told to fight.
[/quote] hold on you make a huge error here clearly never studied the eastern front at school .
stalin sacrificed 2 entire armies at the start to simpy slow the germans down the russians at the beginning were ill equipped with basically fuck all ammo they were nothing but cannon fodder until he was sure japan wasnt going to attack from behind . the crack russia troops were stationed in the east . when they came to the eastern front with T-34’s etc the war changed as these were well equipped troops by the wars end all soviet troops were well equipped and extremely experienced

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3246, topic:21032”]
The soviets did not train their troops well at all. They were given a gun and told to fight.
[/quote] that is correct they learnt to fight or died

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3246, topic:21032”]
The American and British troops were just as expericened and they also had better training.
[/quote] better training yes just as experienced no the russians were fighting for longer. both sides were very very good which is why i said it would likely kill more than 60 million

I am going with a generals opinion. Patton was saying it was possible before he died and Montgomery was agreeing with him. After Patton’s death support for the war against Russia quickly faded.

the generals decided it wasnt so please provide sources to back up your claims like i have . the plan was abandoned for a defensive plan to simply make sure russia didnt push anymore ,

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3246, topic:21032”]
The U.S way out numbered Russia in the air and thats not even counting the other western allies.
[/quote] what numbers did i say i never mentioned numbers .

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3246, topic:21032”]
every other country was rubble and their factories gone
[/quote] russia’s facoties were anything but gone warriant if you seriously think russian industry was gone you know nothing of WW2 literately russia picked up their factories and moved them way out east they were untouched as they were out of range of any german bombers they were pushing out thousands of tanks .

[TheDivineInfidel]

im growing bored of this debate . lets move on .

lets talk about how successful president obama has been for the US done wonders

[SirWarriant]

nope we had 3 the third was not ready however at the time of the second drop the third was meant to be ready 18th of august another 3 ordered for September and another 3 for October . so to effectively carry out your plan you would of had to wait until September at least by which time the soviet union was digging into its new territory and the chances of getting a plan through were going from impossible to fucking impossible .

Okay so within a year we would have had 9 by that count.

which time the soviet union was digging into its new territory and the chances of getting a plan through were going from impossible to fucking impossible .

Kaboom

but they were facing defeat . russia wasnt . japan was preparing to die with honour russia had just crushed an empire and was at the strongest it had ever been .

No the Russian army was exhausted just like their supplies. They got most of their food and vital things like that from the U.S.

hold on you make a huge error here clearly never studied the eastern front at school . stalin sacrificed 2 entire armies at the start to simpy slow the germans down the russians at the beginning were ill equipped with basically fuck all ammo they were nothing but cannon fodder until he was sure japan wasnt going to attack from behind . the crack russia troops were stationed in the east . when they came to the eastern front with T-34’s etc the war changed as these were well equipped troops by the wars end all soviet troops were well equipped and extremely experienced

SirWarriant:

Absolutely not. Russia’s favorite tactic was bury the enemies with sheer numbers of tanks and men. U.S and British troops were much better equipped. They suffered horribly from attrition. The U.S still had a huge portion of its millitary in the pacfic and many more men back home.

the generals decided it wasnt so please provide sources to back up your claims like i have . the plan was abandoned for a defensive plan to simply make sure russia didnt push anymore ,

Not talking about the plan Churchill drafted. Im simply talking about beating Russia. Part of the reason Patton was dismissed is because he was saying we should go kick Russia’s ass.

what numbers did i say i never mentioned numbers .

You said Russia outnumbered the allies in the air which is false. The western allies would gain air superiority quite quickly.

russia’s facoties were anything but gone warriant if you seriously think russian industry was gone you know nothing of WW2 literately russia picked up their factories and moved them way out east they were untouched as they were out of range of any german bombers they were pushing out thousands of tanks .

What good is a tank if the guy driving it doesn’t get his food ? Or if that tanks runs out of gas?

[SirWarriant]

“To sum up, European settlers came to the New World for a variety of reasons, but the thought of infecting the Indians with deadly pathogens was not one of them. As for the charge that the U.S. government should itself be held responsible for the demographic disaster that overtook the American-Indian population, it is unsupported by evidence or legitimate argument. The United States did not wage biological warfare against the Indians; neither can the large number of deaths as a result of disease be considered the result of a genocidal design”. - See more at: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/7302#sthash.bHMawgPP.dpuf

No truer words.

[TheDivineInfidel]

Okay so within a year we would have had 9 by that count.

not very good at maths then 1 not dropped
3 in September
3 in October
that is 7 not 9

[TheDivineInfidel]

You said Russia outnumbered the allies in the air which is false. The western allies would gain air superiority quite quickly.

when did i say that ? i said you didnt have air superiority over the soviet union

[SirWarriant]

not very good at maths then 1 not dropped 3 in September 3 in October that is 7 not 9

Still thats seven aces up their sleeve.

when did i say that ? i said you didnt have air superiority over the soviet union

But we did thats the thing. Russia air force pretty much consisted of borrowed planes. We had far more than the did and thats still not counting how many planes the U.K had.

Stalin obviously feared the bomb Truman used it as leverage to get the Soviets involved in the war with Japan.

[TheDivineInfidel]

But we did thats the thing. Russia air force pretty much consisted of borrowed planes. We had far more than the did and thats still not counting how many planes the U.K had.

but you didnt have air superiority over the soviet union your not processing that are you . it would take time to fully defeat the russian airforce .

[SirWarriant]

but you didnt have air superiority over the soviet union your not processing that are you . it would take time to fully defeat the russian airforce .

We far out numbered them in the air is what i’m saying. Lets also add that our pilots were more experienced in dog fights. (many U.S air men fought in the battle of Britain or the Pacific) Most of Germanys air force was fighting the western allies.

[TheDivineInfidel]

Stalin obviously feared the bomb Truman used it as leverage to get the Soviets involved in the war with Japan.

incorrect . the us didnt want russia involved in the war with japan infact its one of the deciding factors of why you dropped it in the first place as russia was getting in position to help the invasion and would of demanded more land which the us didnt want to give

[TheDivineInfidel]

many U.S air men fought in the battle of Britain

excuse me !!! 9 us pilots fought in the battle of Britain
Their combined score by the end of the battle was two definite destroyed German aircraft, five probable destroyed with two damaged.

[quote=“SirWarriant, post:3255, topic:21032”]
Most of Germanys air force was fighting the western allies.
[/quote] incorrect was more aircraft and troops on eastern front

[TheDivineInfidel]

We far out numbered them in the air is what i’m saying.

yes that doesnt mean you hold air superiority over the soviet union territory