Thoughts about Controllers/Mouse & Keyboard

Hardware & System
#21

@RGS I only saw this thread now and was still ranting on in the old one. When you make a break out like this, please post a note and link in the original thread. :wink:

I’d call myself a hardcore PC fanatic but I have a wireless Xbox360-controller for games like Bastion or FEZ, I think I originally bought it for Bastion (love this game) and I must say Bastion is virtually unplayable without gamepad, but that’s probably because it’s made for gamepads.

What really surprised me was when I tried to fly a helicopter in Arma3 with gamepad. Normally the yaw-maneuver (I think) isn’t set for the keyboard, you’d have to bind the keys yourself but then you don’t have enough keys left around WASD. On the gamepad you can bind two different sets of maneuvers to the two analogue sticks: Tilt and yaw. So now I’m using the gamepad whenever I fly a helicopter, but switch to M&K for the ground business.

€dit: But still I’m bummed out that I don’t have enough keys on the gamepad. No radio-commands etc.

#22

Touchscreen

Problems I can think of:

  • fat marks on the screen
  • smudgy screen, smeared by greasy fingers
  • holding arm(s) up all the time -> symptoms of fatigue;
    when playing with mouse your arms can rest
  • UI too small because it’s designed for
    tiny little mouse pointers -> need big icons
  • and of course precision isn’t good in general
    because of human sausage fingers :smiley:

Recoil

(MP) games designed for multiple platforms (e.g. Battlefield) have less and less recoil, maybe even none, over the years because with controller it’s very hard to counteract in full auto. But since it’s too elaborate to change this for the PC version, they just leave it as it is. Which is another part of the never-ending “dumbing down” story.

For example, in Counter-Strike you mirror the recoil patterns to stay on target while in full auto. Hard enough to do with a mouse. With a controller? Maybe your fingers get twisted or disjointed or something. :smiley:

Sofa Gaming

I like to have precise controls too. I can’t lie down and relax while playing games which demand concentration or quick and precise response. Even when I was playing on PS2 (with controller) I was sitting on a sofa stool.

I have a nice comfortable chair with little wheels and a high ergonomic backrest at my desk, so why don’t use it? For me that’s my way of “relaxing”. :slight_smile:

(just an example, that’s not the one I have, but very close)

If you want to use M+K while sitting on the couch try this:

btw: I have an adapter so I can use my PS2 dual shocks for PC games. But I bought it only for my laptop because using the touchpad for games sucks big time. Because most of the games support only x360 controllers I have to use emulating programs like X360CE or Xpadder. For example, TimeShift has no controller support at all, so I made a profile with Xpadder and it works splendidly. Only problem: TimeShift has too many keys to fit on the controller layout, I’ve had to leave out some less important keys.

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#23

@Fimbul

Sorry about the ‘break-out,’ still getting used to these forums.

Yeah, what you say pretty much confirms my thoughts about gamepads. AFAIK ArmA’s helicopters are somewhere between casual and sim and thus K&M on foot and gamepad for flight makes sense.

I fly hardcore helicopter sims and use a HOTAS set up with pedals and trackIR. Years ago I used a stick with a twist grip which wasn’t bad, but nothing like the setup I have now. Some would go further of course will full home pits etc., but I like to keep my PC as my PC. I have a nice antique desk which I enjoy sitting at + it’s also my work PC + I play plenty of other games too.

#24

@Cerberus - Yeah, I totally agree with your points re:touch screens.

Also, as noted previously I wouldn’t personally want to play from the sofa or bed. I’m really happy to be sat comfortably at my ‘nerding station’ ;). Doesn’t mean I’m not relaxed, I thoroughly enjoy a good glass of wine and some cheese and crackers when playing Total War for e.g. - All very civilized! :wink: (actually a mate of mine does occasionally play this game with me, we pull another chair round and get stuck in). Sure it’s not as sociable generally, but for me it’s a more intimate and immersive experience. That said I’m lucky enough to have a big screen monitor. I can understand someone who has a small, low res PC screen, but a large 1800p TV finding the latter more immersive.

So yeah, a desk is best for me. I also agree with what you say as to the nature of siting at a desk. This is a position which you’re used to sitting at to be productive; actively doing things, concentrating and so on. A sofa on the other hand is more a place for relaxing, passively watching TV or having a casual conversation. I’m not saying sofa’s are the ‘wrong’ place to play from of course, each to their own, but I am finding this conversation quite interesting!

#25

I can confirm all of the touch issues thousand fold. I have to use all-in-one PCs with touchscreens at work to prepare them with our software. They cost like 1500 € ($2000) a piece and still it’s like picking raisins with you elbows, precision-wise. And boy they get more dirty, more quickly than any back alley whore, and run though equally as many hands because "Ohhhh it’s touch, let me rub my greasy fingers on it!"
I hope there is something coming up to replace this touch idiocy fast, like improved gesture control (leap motion). But who am I kidding? People were touching screens long before touch controls came along.

You recoil argument is a good one, don’t have anything to add to it. But it did remind me of this prototype of a different controller.
Of course I’m skeptical and it’ll probably be way to expensive to have a breakthrough, but I really want the combination Oculus Rift + Omni VR + Delta Six + Araig to happen. It’s not the way I always want to play but I’m very curious about how it feels.

#26

Well as I said, unless a good touchscreen control scheme arises. Because we can’t think of anything and because it has not been done before doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

First of all: Older FPS games had pretty much no recoil at all. It took time to become a thing, so it disappearing over the years or being a sign of dumbing down or whatever is not exactly a good example as it’s never really been a standard to begin with. Light recoil is still in videogames, heavy recoil has never really been that widespread.

As for the process of recoil compensation itself: You need to compensate for recoil on a controller as well, recoil is just not quite as crazy. As it’s more difficult to compensate for recoil on a controller, it can hardly be considered dumbing down; the game is just designed for a different control scheme and on that control scheme, it’s just as difficult as other FPS games with M+K.

So in the end, it really is just a matter of preference.

#27

I love platformers, but I fail to see what makes them good with a controller.
With the keyboard, I can have three fingers do the work that one finger needs to do on the controller, allowing me to jump much more precisely. So frankly, I don’t see the point of using the controller that way.

In almost every instance, I choose mouse and keyboard over a controller… except in something akin to DmC, the new Castlevania, Just Cause 2, and games like Kingdoms of Amalur or Third Person Shooters (TPS) like, say, Mass Effect 2 and 3.

As for actual thoughts on the controls, I hope use is made of the TAB, Q, E, R, G, Z, X, C, V, LALT, LMB and RMB buttons and F is left as “interact”. For bows and crossbows, “R” should be a sort of “hold fire” button to store the arrow/bolt in your pouch again.

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#28

Unless you have a very good keyboard, keypresses will be noticeable slower than pressing controller buttons. Yes, we are talking milliseconds here, but I have noticed better performance in platformers since using a controller than when using a keyboard

#29

Platformers where having analog control of your movement speed it makes a difference. Otherwise it won’t be better. Basically 3D platformers in the same vein as the games you listed. Pretty much the only advantage of the controller in any situation is the analog control for 4 inputs where the keyboard + mouse only has 1.

#30

@RGS

I wouldn’t call the controller a “jack of all trades”; it hasn’t changed much since olden times, when the only games people were interested in playing on it were sidescrolling action games, which is what the device was designed for. The major change happened around 2000 when consoles ramped up their controllers to support 3D platformers, which they now do very well.

Controllers are not the optimum device for any other type of game and for the most part, they’re outperformed by mouse and keyboard, which support much more complicated control schemes and much higher sensitivity. I use a controller for those genres that work best on them and for other console exclusives that are interesting enough for other reasons that I can get past the bad controls.

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