Thoughts about Controllers/Mouse & Keyboard

Opening this thread as a break out form the 'Who came here for the console port? one as I wanted to talk a little about controllers and their rise as the primary input device for games (oh, it looks like I meant ‘a lot’ ;)).

Please note; I am not console bashing, but these are my thoughts as to control methods:

For me the controller is a jack of all trades device that was made to work as best as possible for all types of games without the need for a desk. It was also originally designed for more arcade-style games which used to be the only type really available on consoles (2D platformers, third person action games with horrible cameras, arcade racing games, sports games and adventure/horror games, also with awful cameras), none of which I’ve ever been interested in playing.

Since then though things have come a long way in terms of the type of games made for the systems; just look at a list of top selling games for PS1 compared to 360 for e.g.; first person shooters, open world and open world RPGs are now in the top slots.

So, here goes - The controller is a device that needs to be able to be played from the sofa, handed from person to person and work for all types of game (no RTSs on console though, so they are excluded). I can totally understand someone thinking that a controller was made to play games, therefore it must be the best device. It looks like a gaming device after all. The mouse and keyboard on the other hand were made for the office and shouldn’t therefore be as good (maybe a compromise if you don’t have a ‘proper’ game controller). But they’re wrong - You simply cannot match the precision of a mouse with that of a thumb stick, and that IMO is a fact.

Here’s my personal opinion on the best controllers for game type:

**- FPS (and third person with FPS look and control system) - Mouse & Keyboard.

  • Casual third person driving games - Controller.
  • Serious first person driving games - Wheel + Pedals.
  • Platform games - Controller.
  • Flighting games (Street Fighter etc.) - Controller.
  • Strategy and RTS - Mouse & Keyboard.
  • Casual Flight Sim - Controller.
  • Realistic Flight Sim - Joystick/Yoke, Pedals, TrackIR (+ Mouse & Keyboard for switches and UI).
  • Sports games (FIFA etc.) - Controller (though I’ve never played one!).**

Of this list I have very little interest in the titles I’ve classified as ‘best with controller,’ though obviously many such genres are hugely popular (thus I use M&K for all my games + a HOTAS setup, pedals and TrackIR for flight sim).

When we take titles such as GTA or Mafia 2 where you have driving as well as ‘on foot’ sections I’d agree that the actual driving is better with a controller, if it wasn’t for the fact you have free look when driving, and that the cars are forgiving enough to handle on/off keyboard input. Whilst some PC players swap from M&K to controller for driving I’d stick with M&K all the way, due to the free-look (+ not having to swap physical controls).

So, back to first person games and the M&K vs. controller debate. If we take a ‘pure’ FPS, Quake 3/Live for e.g. I think that everyone can agree that M&K will produce the best results in a competitive environment. Some may argue that the analogue movement on the controller is more realistic, but in honesty a thumb-stick is too small to give great precision. You’re actually much more precise using the exacting on/off input of WASD and then guiding the view and thus direction precisely with the mouse. In terms of sneaking slowly forward, yes the keyboard isn’t an analogue device, but when you have ‘jog (default speed),’ ‘walk’ and ‘sprint,’ the first two of which are modulated with ‘crouch,’ you have enough flexibility already.

As to my list above; though I could scrape by playing a flight sim or realistic racing game with a controller, I wouldn’t hope to compete with someone using a joystick or wheel setup. What’s more, had I used either of those setups previously I’d be really frustrated trying to play with a controller. I wouldn’t even consider playing these types of game with K&M. But that’s kind of what I mean about the controller, it sits in the middle, allows you to play everything OK and chooses to master the ‘casual’ titles.

Retuning to my ‘controller designed for games’ comment: The controller reminds me in many ways of today’s tablets. Almost everyone has one and for many (casual) users they replace a PC. Doing the simplest of things, browsing the net for e.g., is far faster and less frustrating on PC with M&K. BUT the PC needs a desk, space, maintenance, time to turn on etc. and can’t be used from the sofa or on the move. Don’t get me wrong, tablets are great and serve a good role, but hear me out. Touch screen and voice controls are often seen as the future, and better/slicker than a clunky/nerdy M&K. But in terns of actual user experience/productivity they’re slower and more awkward. Where am I going with this? Well none of this would really bother me too much if it wasn’t for the fact as so-called ‘hardcore’ PC users we’re getting getting all this inferior stuff forced upon us. With the massive success of consoles AAA games are mostly designed with a controller in mind as the primary form of input and on the PC itself we have Windows 8 and so on. It begins to get you down after a while and aside from some idiots wanting to show off I think that this is where a lot of the ‘PC Master Race’ frustration comes from.

Being a passionate gamer, PC games are super important to me. Seeing a controller used when playing a PC FPS game as a preference is a scary sight as it makes me feel that my ‘gaming way of life’ is being eroded (rather large exaggeration, but hopefully you get the point). Now this bit might offend some people, but it’s really not meant to; watching someone playing a PC FPS game through choice with a controller is to me like watching someone navigating a desktop PC with a touch screen and voice control.Let’s expand those windows by hand and get dictating an email or fire up that virtual keyboard! What’s worse is whilst I’m busy face-palming they’re actually believing that what they’re doing is better/quicker/cooler/more productive than M&K. I can understand if that’s all you’ve known (only used tablets or always a console gamer who’s only just come over to PC), but otherwise I just don’t get it… OK, so playing with a controller maybe isn’t quite that bad, but still…

Sorry for the long post - Just had to get it out of my system! Hopefully one person might find the time to read it :slight_smile: (they will probably just post - ‘You’re wrong’ - LOL, Oh well!)

Please let me know your thoughts!

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I totally agree with you, M&K is the way I like to play. The controller is just not precise enough and not an option for strategy and FPS games.

Thanks for taking the time to read the monster post!

Very glad to hear that you agree :).

Nice points,

Although I prefer the mouse and keyboard. Driving with a controller is much better like in Mafia 2 I used the controller for the driving sessions.

Luckily we don’t have to worry about that, in this game. I don’t play driving or sports games and I dislike multiplayer, so controller is not an option for me.

Yup… thats pretty much how I see the split working too…

Some are better with a M&K some are better with a controller.

Personally I like Platformers… so I play them on consoles. I’ve also gotten used to FPS games on consoles…but I bow to the understanding that there’s more control and accuracy on a PC.

I tend to like using the old mouse & keyboard for RPGs. I do have a controller which I’ve used for adventure games like Batman: Arkham Asylum. I am foreseeing a first person experience similar to Skyrim in terms of how Kingdom Come will interact with the world. So with that assumption, and that’s all it is, I would currently say I’m going with the keyboard & mouse.

Personally, I hate controllers for every real 3D game. But I know people who love them. In the end it really comes down to what you are used to. You most likely the control method you’re used to best. It’s that simple.

Assassin’s Creed is for example one of the best sereis of games to demnostrate that: I would never play these games with a controller and I love the M+K controls in these games. But I actually know a lot of games who would never play these games with M+K, even PC folks. It’s just taste and practice (if both control methods are well implemented).

I agree pretty much completly - let’s not forget that the unprecise and slow controller setup for FPS is what made autoaim a standard on consoles (on PC we’d call that cheating)

I guess the developers use a gamepad for their demonstrations because they think it is what the masses want - that may actually be correct, but unfortunately, the masses can be pretty wrong at times

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That all depends on how you define “correct”.

If you define it as what you think is right then yeah… but if you define it by what the majority thinks is right…then no.

I assume that the mouse and keyboard where not designed for gaming at the beginning. Therfore it is strange, that even interfances, that where designed for gaming, are not as good as K+M (at least FPS and stuff).
Also I would like to add: I think it is completly impossible to fight in M&B on horseback without mouse…

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As I say in my OP, it’s because the controller is a ‘jack of all trades’ device (and has to be) and also when originally designed the majority of console games were not FPSs. Thus it was designed for the arcade titles which were dominant on the systems at the time (platform games, casual driving games, fighting games and sports games). At least that’s my opinion.

Putting it another way round, I guess you could say that strategy and FPS games were in fact designed to work well with keyboard and mouse.

The only benefit of the controller is the accessibility, price point and the fact that they have 4 analog inputs which keyboard and mouse doesn’t have, but driving wheels and flight sticks do. Considering the only games that use that many analog inputs are driving and flight games, you are better served by the more dedicated device, but it costs more. That said I don’t see any benefit of a controller over the mouse for this kind of game given the option, the above Mount and Blade example being a perfect example.

Obviously the correct input choice for this game would be the oculus + omni + stem and the $1000 price tag that setup will cost, so the developers should only design with that control scheme in mind. They’re obviously just making sure the game is accessible to the largest market, which is not VR enthusiasts or PC gamers. Hence the primary focus on controllers.

I’m sort of guilty of both, but nevermind, I still mostly navigate desktop computers via mouse + keyboard - I just think that touch and voice are very nice complements to those.

At any rate, when it comes to gaming on a controller, I get a choice: I can either sit at my PC, clawing on my keyboard and mouse while playing games, which is what I’m doing 8 hours a day at work, or I can direct output to the TV, lie down on my couch next to my wife who’s doing stuff on her notebook and play like that. The choice is as simple as that for me.

And now, keep in mind that PC gaming is super important for me as well, but the reason why I prefer it is choice. Whenever you’re playing on PC, you can choose your settings, you can choose lower framerate or details for higher FOV, you can choose how to play your games, and you can choose what to control them with. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the core nature of it.

Actually, mouse + keyboard is a jack of all trades device. Gamepad is a device dedicated to playing videogames.

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Contextually jack of all trades with respect to gaming is what he meant I’m sure. It is designed to provide basic gameplay function across as many genres as possible while being ergonomic and simple. Which also means devices with a dedicated gaming purpose will typically perform better than a controller in that genre but worst in other genres. Whereas a controller is just average at everything across the board (except for strategy games).

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What lets the M&K setup win for me over controller every time is actually kind of the opposite of what has been said here mostly.

I would characterize myself more as a “casual” gamer, I’ve never had the time and dedication to get into gaming in a way a “real” gamer does, sinking hundreds of hours in Counter Strike for example.
But I still spend a lot of time on the computer - studying, surfing, watching stuff - and the only console I’ve ever owned was a Nintendo 64. So I’m extremely used to the M&K setup and have no problems adapting to it when I play. I do acknowledge that there are games that can only be played sensibly with a controller, but I’m not used to that, bad at it and don’t want to spend time learning it, so mostly I just don’t play them.

I might be missing out on an lot of great games like this, but that really doesn’t matter, because there are more great games than I can play anyway, where I can actually play the game and don’t have to struggle with unfamiliar controls first.

Also, I don’t play PC games as any kind of social activity, I play single player (which is also why I backed KCD so enthusiastically), I do that as a relaxing time away from the world and I’m happy with that.

tl;dr: I use M&K simply because I’m used to that control scheme in everything I do with a computer.

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Ah ha! - I see where you’re coming from there, and it’s a fair point. Thing is that the games I like to play, first person and strategy, were designed with keyboard and mouse in mind. So for those games its a perfect fit (IMO) whereas the controller wasn’t designed for those games and thus is a compromise.

  • The controller was designed to play VIDEO GAMES (i.e. your standard console fare).

  • COMPUTER GAMES (i.e. FPS and strategy) were,
    originally at least, designed to be played with a keyboard and mouse.

:wink:

I get that a controller is good if you want to play from bed, or from the sofa. But to me the lack of precision control isn’t worth it. Also, I guess I’m kind of a nerd, so playing at my desk in front of a big screen is much more immersive for me (though admittedly less social) than playing in the living room/bedroom. My wife often ends up watching things on her laptop from the sofa in my computer room. I also work on my computer all day, but I don’t see it as ‘clawing on my keyboard.’

I think that touch and voice control as inputs are great for mobile devices, just not for the serious desktop environment. I do 100% agree about the flexibility of PC gaming though.

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Pretty much spot on, yes.

Although I’d admit that the controller does excel at traditional console titles such as platformers and casual racing games, the keyboard and mouse on the other hand excel at traditional PC titles i.e. FPSs and strategy games.

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Right, and another thing - even when I don’t mind sitting down to my computer, unless the FPS games are very skill-based (like new Call of Juarez is), I will always opt for a gamepad. When it’s well implemented, shooting just feels awesome. You’re actually pressing a trigger on your pad as opposed to clicking your mouse, when rumble is well-done, the pad is kicking in your hands for high-powered weapons and rhytmically thumping for machine guns, well implemented rumble just goes a long way for me.

The control scheme of looking around using the thumbstick is far from ideal, but I have learned to be quite accurate. It’s not exatly like my skill with a mouse, not remotely, but I can hold my own even on highest difficulties of most FPS games I have played, so that’s all good.

But yeah, RTS games are just about unplayable without a mouse, and to be honest, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Unless some good touchscreen control schemes arise that is.

@Fenixp

Some good points there man.

Whilst I wouldn’t ever trade the precision of the mouse for the feel of trigger and rumble effects of a pad myself, I can appreciate you and others choosing to do so as a preference. For me the extra control isn’t just important from a skill/satisfaction perspective (pulling of those great snap shots and so on), but it’s just become so natural for me for navigating the virtual world that using a thumb stick to look around, whilst certainly do-able and a good compromise for console, just feels clumsy and frustrating.

I thought that the first person combat in the live stream video looked fantastic, even in it’s unfinished sate, and winced when poor old Henry got run through on more than one occasion! I imagine that and the clinking of blades would feel pretty good with some real-world physical feedback.

As I say, it’s not for me (even more so as I intend to play as an archer), but I take your points and enjoy hearing your opinion.

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