Troll cave II

[DrFusselpulli]

Nothing cannot form into something

Oh really? So, where was God coming from?
God, the almighty super-power which was able to create everything in just 7 days.

I hope this isn´t a bad straw man. If it is, then sorry, bring on another argument please.
“God was already there because he was always there”

Okay, I believe that this could be a point.
But all the energy which formed the Big Bang could have been already there too.

I personally can agree to two definitions of God.
There was a cause of the Universe, we know nothing about this cause. There is no reason to believe, that it was a conscious cause. Existing beings can be conscious, but this cause is neiter existing nor a being, because it is outside of the universe.
Therefore, this cause doesn´t have any moral intention, as moral is a very human and secular behavior.
It happened for an unknown reason, but we know it happened because we are here.
We can give this cause a name. God.

The other idea of God which can be described as true, is the description of god as an idea.
like, Harry Potter exists as an idea. We can talk about it. And people who know about him, know what we mean. Ideas do have influence of the real world. People spend time to read the books, talk about it, maybe it is changing their live somehow. And god is existing as an abstract idea in our heads.

[DrFusselpulli]

How exactly is that? Our morals tell us stealing and murder is wrong, yet this is somehow problematic for you?

Just the first videos I could find.

Is it “Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not kill, with the execption of [add here a list of cases when it is the complete opposite and you should kill]”

Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill you? Yes/No?
Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill your wife? Yes/No?
Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill one of your countryman? Yes/No?
Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill somebody, who is from another country? Yes/No?
Is it okay to kill somebody, who supports somebody with supplies who wants to kill somebody, who is from another country? Yes/No?
Is it okay to kill somebody, who knows the person who supports somebody with supplies who wants to kill somebody, who is from another counrty? Yes/No?
Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill your dog? Yes/No?
Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill a dog? Yes/No?
Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kills a chicken? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kills somebody, who wants to kill your son? Yes/No?
If your son killed another person, and he is found guilty, and he is facing the death penalty, is it allowed to kill the executioner? Yes/No?
If your son maybe killed another person, but only he knows, and he is found guilty, and he is facing the death penalty, is it allowed to kill the executioner? Yes/No?
If your son was killed by the executioner, is it allowed to kill the judge? Yes/No?

It doesn´t even say “Thou shalt not kill humans” it only says "Thou shalt not kill"
Is it allowed to kill a fly? Yes/No?
If you are sick, is it allowed to take antibiotics to kill the bacteria? Yes/No?

Your Moral is broken. It doesn´t work this way in the real world. Where is the line? Where exactly is the line? Yes for all? No for all? Yes for some and no for some others? and if maybe then why?

yet this is somehow problematic for you?

Yes, I don´t see that this is a simple solution. But I assume you have another opinion about it.
Must be super easy and clear where the line is exactly. As it is not problematic for you.

[SirWarriant]

Oh really? So, where was God coming from?

Nothing cannot form into something is a rule of our universe. Presumably any entity capable of creating our universe would not have the same rules and restrictions bound to our universe. It may not even have rules at all, since rules as we know them may only be bound to our universe.

God, the almighty super-power which was able to create everything in just 7 days.

Again, time is a rule in our universe, its a concept of human perception. What could be billions of years for us, could be only days for a god.

But all the energy which formed the Big Bang could have been already there too.

Perhaps, we’ll never know though, because we cannot look back prior the the creation of the universe, since by our definition there was nothing, the universe encompasses everything.

But then again, why was this energy just sitting there, where did it come from? Since even our universe is not infinite and timeless, i doubt anything is. And since anything that was here before the universe, is classified as super nature, or super natural.

I personally can agree to two definitions of God.

There was a cause of the Universe, we know nothing about this cause. There is no reason to believe, that it was a conscious cause. Existing beings can be conscious, but this cause is neiter existing nor a being, because it is outside of the universe.

Therefore, this cause doesn´t have any moral intention, as moral is a very human and secular behavior.

It happened for an unknown reason, but we know it happened because we are here.

We can give this cause a name. God.

Correct, any being capable of creating a universe, would be in our definition, a god.

[SirWarriant]

Just the first videos I could find.

Is it “Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not kill, with the execption of [add here a list of cases when it is the complete opposite and you should kill]”

Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill you? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill your wife? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill one of your countryman? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill somebody, who is from another country? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kill somebody, who supports somebody with supplies who wants to kill somebody, who is from another country? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kill somebody, who knows the person who supports somebody with supplies who wants to kill somebody, who is from another counrty? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill your dog? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kill a dog? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kill somebody, who wants to kills a chicken? Yes/No?

Is it okay to kills somebody, who wants to kill your son? Yes/No?

If your son killed another person, and he is found guilty, and he is facing the death penalty, is it allowed to kill the executioner? Yes/No?

If your son maybe killed another person, but only he knows, and he is found guilty, and he is facing the death penalty, is it allowed to kill the executioner? Yes/No?

If your son was killed by the executioner, is it allowed to kill the judge? Yes/No?

It doesn´t even say “Thou shalt not kill humans” it only says “Thou shalt not kill”

Is it allowed to kill a fly? Yes/No?

If you are sick, is it allowed to take antibiotics to kill the bacteria? Yes/No?

Your Moral is broken. It doesn´t work this way in the real world. Where is the line? Where exactly is the line? Yes for all? No for all? Yes for some and no for some others? and if maybe then why?

Thou shall not kill, applies to murder, which is why i specifically said murder and not killing. Killing someone out of self defence or if you’re at war is not the same as murder.

Chickens, Bacteria?

You’re just being silly now. Western morals are Judaeo- Christian in origin, and forbid none of that. Any reasonable person would be able to come to the conclusion when killing is justified or not.

There are plenty of times when morals are quite clear cut.

[DrFusselpulli]

No. I am not silly. So, War is okay, and self defense is okay.

Okay, then we are coming to war.
It is allowed to kill other soldiers.
Is it allowed to kill a Pilot of the enemy forces in the air, who comes down with a Parachute to save his life. Can you kill him? Yes/No?
If it is not a Pilot but a Paratrooper, and he comes down, to attack your country. Can you kill him? Yes/No?
What about a soldier who surrendered? Yes/No?

And what about the war in Vietnam? War was never declared. Does every american soldier who killed somebody there burn in hell now?

What if Trump would declare war with Mexico, because the didn´t pay for the wall. Can you kill every mexican in this case because it is war?

And Self defense. You are in your Bedroom with your wife, your gun is next to you.
A stranger enters the door, and says to you: “Don´t worry, I don´t want to harm you. I am just here to kill your wife.” Then he takes out a gun and point at your wife. Is it still self-defence? Yes/No?
What if she killed somebody before, and you don´t know or what if you know?
And what if it is not in the bedroom anymore, but in a prison, and she is facing the death panalty, and the stranger is an executioner?

I am dead serious. How does your moral work here? It must be simple for you.

[SirWarriant]

I am dead serious. How does your moral work here? It must be simple for you.

Ok, my bad, I’m starting to see what you mean, i misunderstood where you’re coming from.

Okay, then we are coming to war.

It is allowed to kill other soldiers.

Is it allowed to kill a Pilot of the enemy forces in the air, who comes down with a Parachute to save his life. Can you kill him? Yes/No?

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you asking ifs okay to kill a pilot who was shot down?

What about a soldier who surrendered? Yes/No?

Obviously not. He is no longer a threat to you, and has basically placed his life in your hands by throwing down his weapon.

And what about the war in Vietnam? War was never declared. Does every american soldier who killed somebody there burn in hell now?

Oh come on. It was in every sense of the word a war.

What if Trump would declare war with Mexico, because the didn´t pay for the wall. Can you kill every mexican in this case because it is war?

Well no you cannot “kill every single Mexican” since the majority would unarmed civilians. And the soldiers who killed other soldiers in that war would be in a kill or be killed situation.

But i think the leader who makes the choice to attack a peaceful nation is committing murder in a sense yes.

And Self defense. You are in your Bedroom with your wife, your gun is next to you.

A stranger enters the door, and says to you: “Don´t worry, I don´t want to harm you. I am just here to kill your wife.” Then he takes out a gun and point at your wife. Is it still self-defence? Yes/No?

What if she killed somebody before, and you don´t know or what if you know?

That is protecting a loved one, so self defence of someone else.

I am dead serious. How does your moral work here? It must be simple for you.

All these questions were pretty straight forward for me. You basically gave me examples of kill or be killed situations, or situations where your lack of action would lead to someones death.

[DrFusselpulli]

Okay, a very real question. Death penalty. There is a direct democratic vote, if you want to have the death penelty or not. In your logic (so far), the vote would be 100% against it, if morals in your definition are true. Because we changed “Thou shalt not kill” to “Thou shalt not kill, with the execption of self defence, and in war, with the excepton of prisoners of war, and people who want to kill a loved one.”
And nothing here fits to the Death penalty, so: NO.
Or at least every christian would vote NO, because they have morals and they know what is right and wrong.
But there were some liberals among the voters, and they had no idea what they do, and so in the end, they all together voted 51% YES, for death panelty and it becomes true.

Because there is no thread anymore. the murderer is locked up in some prison cell. But we kill him afterwards anyway.
Good or bad?
Who would take the responsibilty if bad? the executiner? the politician who started the vote? the liberals who voted pro in the vote? What if there were any christians among them?
Abortion no, Death penalty yes? Is such a decision possible?

What if the murderer is a prisoner of war in Nürnberg 1949? The war is already over for 4 years and the perpetrator killed nobody by himself, and he didn´t participate in the war at all. He only ordered to kill Jews, millions of them. Is it allowed to hang him or not? He isn´t a thread anymore.
And if they killed them, and it was not just, who is the murderer of him? Whos american soul is burning in hell now for killing him? And if it was justified, why was it justified to kill him? He wasn´t hitler, he didn´t started the war, he was just following orders.
If it was justified to kill him. Then it is also justified to kill the other murderer from the case above, who only killed one person. Is it? Otherwise a christian American soul is burning in hell right now and the tribunal made an unjust case of murder. Whos soul is it? The Judge or the executitinor? Or is it President Truman, who ordered that there should be tribunal?

And if it is not justified to kill the murderer who killed one person above, but the execution of the Nazi is, how many jews could the Nazi have ordered to kill before becoming guilty of murder? 1? 5? 20? 1000?
And please consider, the Nazi is a prisoner. He surrendered.

No. Moral is something fix, not fluit. So it must be all or nobody.
And because it were christian Americans who know what is just and what is not, the murder of the Nazi was just. All of this cases must have been just to kill somebody. So it must be just to kill somebody, who is a murderer, even if he isn´t a thread anymore. Otherwise a tribunal of christian americans made a wrong choice, and thats not possible.

So, if this is just, and if it is just to kill somebody who killed a loved one. Then it must be the case, that if you sit in your Bedroom with your Wife. Your wife killed somebody years ago, and a stranger enters the room and says to you: "Don´t worry, I am not here to harm you, I just want to kill your Wife."
In this logic, it is just for him, to kill your wife, and he will still be innocent. You can shoot him, because he killed a loved one of yours, but you would shoot an innocent person at the same time.

Or if it is only just if a judge said so? So, a judge makes the decision if it is just or not, depending on his moral?
What if he is a Judge, is he only able to make moral choices when he sits in his chair?
Can a morally choice be depending on where you sit an what you wear?

The questions above are all rethorical. Please answer this ones down below:
Or maybe, this is all wrong, and the christian american tribunal made a mistake back in 1949 in Nürnberg.
Then whos soul is buring in hell right now for the murder of the Nazi?
But if it is right, then it is possible, that a stranger enters your house, kill your wife, and is still innocent.
Or it could be possible, that Moral is not fix, but fluit?
And if the Nürnberg tribunal was just, but the guy who comes into your bedroom with a gun is not just.
How many Jews could the Nazi have killed before becomming guilty?

Please tell me. You are the christian. You know exactly what is just and what is not. You are superiour when it comes to moral. I am a liberal atheist.

Should be super easy for you, otherwise you are officially not a reasonable person anymore:

Any reasonable person would be able to come to the conclusion when killing is justified or not.

But maybe you mean it in a different way, and a reasonable person will feel what is right or wrong, and it is something every christian has and feels.
Then why do Christians struggle with the question about the death panelty?
Are there reasonable Christians and Non-reasonable Christians?
Then wich ones are the reasonable ones? Are you a reasonable or an unreasonable Christian?
Maybe they are both right, because it is something every Christian has, the knowledge of Moral.
Then the death panelty is morally good, and morally wrong at the same time, depending on the person. Is this possible? Please tell me. I really don´t understand how this Moral works. I really don´t know.
I don´t get it, I don´t want to fool you, I just don´t understand.

Please. Please teach me moral. I am an Atheist, and a Liberal. And I have no idea how this moral works.
You know, you are a christian. Please tell me.

[DrFusselpulli]

Thou shall not kill, applies to murder, which is why i specifically said murder and not killing.

So the ten commandments are wrong or are you just twisting words?
Are christians who believe killing is wrong wrong, because they don´t know that it applies to murder?
Why are you sure, that it applies to murder?
Is the bible wrong? And if you can´t trust in the Bible, who can you trust?
If I can´t feel God, because I am an atheist, but I want to believe and do moral good things, what can I do?
If I declare that I am not an atheist anymore, and I really believe in God, will it fix my broken moral compass?
Does it count as fixed, even if nothing changed in my moral decisions?
Is something morally good, because it is done by christians, and morally bad, because it is done by non-christians?

As I was a child, I always wanted to have a bike and prayed for a bike. But God never gave a bike to me.
Later I noticed, god doesn´t work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness. Is this how your moral works.

[ProkyBrambora]

So the ten commandments are wrong or are you just twisting words?

Are christians who believe killing is wrong wrong, because they don´t know that it applies to murder?

Why are you sure, that it applies to murder?

Actually he is right. Old testament does make a distinction between murder and killing (for example in self defense or war) And the word for “murder” is used in this commandment.

And it even seems that Jesus Christ did not condemn soldiers for being soldiers, he even tells his followers to buy a sword if they don’t have one

Thou shalt not kill

[DrFusselpulli]

Oh, okay. That answers some of my questions here. It is just a wrong translation indeed.

[SirWarriant]

[DrFusselpulli]

Thats not good. Identity politics is harmful for our society. It doesn´t help the society. The political left movement has to stop this immediately, it divides the society, tears it appart.

This identity politics strengthens the political right spectrum. And as they get stronger, the ultra-left authoritarian spectrum also gets stronger. It goes back and forth, and the political centre vanishes at it spreads to the side, to the extremes. It can lead to a collapse of democracy in the end.

[DrFusselpulli]

Holy shit… what is this? “Fat & Beautiful”? Gender non-binary? Greatscott… even I feel triggered.
Yes, I want to believe that it doesn´t have any chromosomes. Internet, what are you doing?
This is the most shitty thing I have seen for a long time. Glad they made the video on a toilet, which is the right place. And she is a journalist, for a real newspaper. newspaper and she talks like… what the fuck is this?
This… I have no idea… a person? No maybe not… Cognitive dissonance coming to live.

But the comments under the video are very funny and creative. Maybe it is a sort of strange interactive activity art?

[SirWarriant]

So my sister who is in high school brought her boyfriend over for dinner to meet the family.

I’m sitting at the kitchen table cleaning my SKS while hes helping my sister and mom make the meal, and the kid keeps nervously glancing over at me. God this is so much fun.

[SirWarriant]

I completely agree but identity politics and in group references will continue to be used regardless of we participate or not. We are quickly becoming minority’s in our own nations, so I’m torn. I think we might to have start asserting our in group preferences if the west is to survive.

[ProkyBrambora]

But truth be told, It was kind of a surprise for me too.
i was raised in christian family and we were taught that every killing is a sin. Though still I suppose to join an army just to kill people does not align with christian values.
It all depends what is inside you, and what is the reason you do things you do.

Anyway this information gave me completely different lighting on the christian faith for me. I always thought that Christianity is impractical. But it seems that I was wrong.

[DrFusselpulli]

I completely agree but identity politics and in group references will continue to be used regardless of we participate or not. We are quickly becoming minority’s in our own nations, so I’m torn. I think we might to have start asserting our in group preferences if the west is to survive.

I completely agree but identity politics and in group references will continue to be used regardless of we participate or not. We are quickly becoming minority’s in our own nations , so I’m torn. I think we might to have start asserting our in group preferences if the west is to survive.

This is identity politics as well. It is the same argument, just from the other side around. You say you are the good ones, because you are defending your identity against a thread from outside. The others are the bad ones, because they attack your identity.
They say, they are the good ones, because they are oppressed, and they fight against the oppression of their identity. And the others are the oppressors, the others are bad.

You understand that this feeds them? That you make them stronger? That you give social justice warriors a reason to exist? This gives them a concept of an enemy, and they need it for their group identity. It is important to have an enemy in moral answers, the problem changes the focus, away from a structural problem to a personal one. And that is the problem of moral.

That is moral by the way. Moral is the creation of a norm which others have to follow to create a strong enough group which has a common goal to change the society.
By bringing this norm into the focus of the problem, you exclude the reason of the problem from your view and it will be difficult to find a solution for the problem, because you can´t find it´s root anymore. You just make a difference, we as good and this is important, and they are bad, and the cause of a problem.

Beeing a christian is moral for this reason. Because you say it is important to be christian and follow christian values, this is the right thing to do. The wrong thing to do is not to be a christian. so they are wrong, they are the bad ones.

Not to kill somebody is a moral norm. You have the ideal, that killing is bad, and not killing is good. Everyone has to agree to this opinion. people who not agree are bad because killing is bad. But it is not only that their opinion about killing is bad, it switches the focus from the topic to the person. the person is bad because he doesn´t share the ideal.
You distinguish and press society into a simple from, which is necessary to come to form a strong enough group to make it an imporant issue.

[TheDivineInfidel]

Again, you’re extremely arrogant. Many people far more intelligent and educated believe and have believed in god both today and years past.

There is nothing that invalidates the existence of a creator. On the contrary BB, validates most of genesis, despite genesis being written thousands of years prior to BB being accepted as how the universe formed.

There is nothing that proves it either

Didn’t intend to imply that, but i did not turn back to religion because i became lost.

I’d say differently in my opinion .

And where did i do that?

By suggesting the world was created by an intelligent being .

No because an Atom is not nothing. Nothing does not exist.

No one has ever suggested the universe came from nothing .

But those are the rules for this universe. The natural rules, may not apply in the place where said being may have originated from, because here nothing cannot morph into something, it’s literally impossible.

Do you have evidence to support this theory ?

That still does not explain where, those universes came from

That’s because no one knows … only has theories . Supported by current knowledge in the same way we do not fully understand the human mind we only have theories .

Simply put you can never explain the formation of the universe through natural means, since it cannot be observed, what came before it if anything.

And why does genesis describe the formation of the universe to a tea?

And I’m assuming then you have credible evidence suggest it came from god ?

[TheDivineInfidel]

o my sister who is in high school brought her boyfriend over for dinner to meet the family.

I’m sitting at the kitchen table cleaning my SKS while hes helping my sister and mom make the meal, and the kid keeps nervously glancing over at me. God this is so much fun.

Well I would imagine in today’s America there is nothing more scary than a skinny white lonely Christian boy with a gun …

[ProkyBrambora]

You bickering fools, join the ranks of Agnostics!