Why no directional blocking?

[Vik]

What is the point of choosing the direction of your blow, when block or parry is only dependent on timing?

What Tobi says PLUS there is more…
It’s not fully working yet (at least in the Alpha build) but position of your sword is actually (somewhat) important in a parry. I wouldn’t call it a directional blocking but if you copy enemy’s sword position, it’s easier for you to make a parry (timed block). It’s just a matter of physics: sword needs to travel shorter distance, hence more forgiving timing (once you press a parry too late, the distance actually matters, so if you are attacked from above and you have your sword down on your right side, you will not make a parry in time and get hit). Timing is still more important: if you press the block in perfect time, you will always parry, regardless your sword’s position (well… except it’s in the scabbard or in a liver of some other enemy), however having your sword closer to the attack means the timing is more forgiving (not that much, but still…).

As I’ve said: it’s not much working in the Alpha There were some serious troubles around it, will be fixed in the next one (hopefully).

Except they’re not really combos.

Of course “historical” part in the combo is only the final strike. The combo itself just provides a way how to “adjust” your opponent for this strike. Like slashing from the upper right will get him to a position when he is expecting the strike from lower left and you can come with an unexpected short-edged strike (just an example). Also, it’s a “gamy” way how to even initiate these techniques, what you need when you have just two mouse buttons…

[SirMandalore]

Did you ever try out the multiplayer of Mount & Blade: Warband?

Lets remember that Mount and Blade has only four directions to attack and block, not six. I can also remember, in multiplayer, getting repeatedly killed because the game misread my mouse directions, and i blocked the wrong way. To be honest, it was actually really frustrating, and is one of the reasons I’m happy Warhorse implemented a one button block.
If i recall, holding the block button should drain stamina, so there is incentive to not just block and parry your way through a fight (although it may not be implemented, or it was just that i had a bug so it didn’t… )

I have so many memories of fights (1 on 1) that took several minutes to finish.

Have you ever been in a 1 on 1 duel thats lasted minutes in real life? In my limited manner, i have. They are friggin tiring . If you aren’t fit, they can really drain you - you wouldn’t think so, but just about every fight that lasts more than a minute and a half has me breathing hard . Also, a fight doesn’t generally end when the person blocks the wrong way - once again, in my limited experience, it is really hard to block the wrong way in real life (i.e. block the wrong direction). Most of the time its because you miss the block, either a little too high, or a little too low, or you’re just a little too slow, or you don’t parry their sword properly and they can move it out of your parry. Blocking the wrong way generally only happens with inexperienced swordsmen who don’t know how to read their opponents movements - and i mean people who have never handled a sword, and even then, about an hour or so of instruction normally solves that problem.
Right now, i think Warhorse’s system of stamina and health accurately simulates real sword-fighting, because you essentially try to tire the other person out by hurting them, and then making them work harder than their wounds allow.

Maybe it’s because they are stating why they wouldn’t support this game?Doesn’t it make sense to you?

Actually, not really. There is a difference between critiquing complaining, one is helpful, and the other just wastes people’s time . Most the of the complainers say what they don’t like and leave it at that. there’s no attempt made to understand what the dev team has to do, and what would be a feasible solution to whatever was bothering them. A prime example is the “not a fan of the combat” thread, which i know you’ve read. the first post from Mackwab is him complaining about locking, then complaining about blocking. no suggestions made. at. all. Granted, he is a backer, so not the best example.
Anyways, in light of previous statements…

because there are alternatives which would look realistic but are still based on “directional blocking” in terms of gameplay

care to elaborate? i don’t want to lump you in with the complainers…

[ragnaroc]

I don’t believe you.Simply because defeating him is all about luck.You better have some proof to back this statement.

Nah thats not about luck.
Things I did were:
1 wait for him to attack you
2 do a counterattack
3 swing as many hits at him as you can (I changed the directions, but I don’t know if it’s needed)
4a if your stamina is gone retreat a bit so it will refill
4b if he counterattacks you do a another counter
5 repeat

I did that and won 2 times in a row (haven’t tried it more times because it became boring to me)
Maybe I will give you some video proof of that in a distant future. But I don’t wanna spend so much time on recording and editing. (also I’m not very into creating videos)
Just try it out yourself if you are interested in the functionallity.
Maybe it’s even possible to win that fight without loosing health. When I tried that he hit me for about 2 times.

Anyway as owner of M&B I must say that combat system there is one of the most frustrating. It is similar to War of the Vikings where you can be decapitated through shield. Combat system in M&B is all about playing again and again until you learn all tricks and advantages of every weapon.

I didn’t play War of the Vikings, but I haven’t seen such things in M&B:W. Yeah I agree on that you have to play it alot to become good. But the mayor thing you have to learn is how to block. There aren’t that much of big advantages or tricks regarding to the weapons. Also those things are discribed in the weapon tooltips when you choose them. Sure there are some advanced tricks in the melee gameplay like kicking or feinting, but if you know how to block or avoid that you are just fine.

Isn’t that a good thing? As developer you want people to play the same game no matter the platform.

Have you ever played GTA 4 or 5, Assassin’s Creed or The Witcher with m&k? Thats about what I ment. It just feels weird.

What do you think about implementing directional blocking but also allowing to auto-block? Like that you could decide between those two modes to ensure the best difficulty for each player on his own.

[ProkyBrambora]

Have you ever played GTA 4 or 5, Assassin’s Creed or The Witcher with m&k? Thats about what I ment. It just feels weird.

I play only with k&m.

What do you think about implementing directional blocking but also allowing to auto-block? Like that you could decide between those two modes to ensure the best difficulty for each player on his own.

I am not really into directional blocking. In M&B it is managable because you have only three sides from which to attack (+ thurst) and then three sides from which to block.

As for doing on/off feature. I hear this idea over and over here. I’d rather have as little as possible of those on/off things.
I dont like idea of being able to customize your game into almost completely different one.

[RuntCaustas]

Also, a fight doesn’t generally end when the person blocks the wrong way - once again, in my limited experience, it is really hard to block the wrong way in real life (i.e. block the wrong direction)

@SirMandalore, I am a living example of how this is possible and you have seen it first hand.

[Neon_Knight]

Thank you so much for the answer, It satisfied me
Im looking forward to adjusting my sword to my oponent, and if it wil actually help me, it is my much desired directional blocking after all!

[ragnaroc]

As for doing on/off feature. I hear this idea over and over here. I’d rather have as little as possible of those on/off things.I dont like idea of being able to customize your game into almost completely different one.

Maybe it could be implemented as the highest grade of difficulty.

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

I completely agree with you @tusak!

I see that you haven’t backed up the game actually, but nonetheless this fact doesn’t take away the truth in your words.

Myself, I’ve been a M&B player like you since the very beginning, also played a little Chivalry, but I prefer M&B a lot more! So it is understandable why I spent my hard earned money in Kickstarter as soon as I saw KC:Deliverance’s campaign in M&B forums.

From what I’ve already seen and played, I’m disappointed as well. This combat system sucks right now and I feel devs have invested too much time and efforts in their complex-real-life-motion-capture-sword-experts to simply trash it. However, I keep my fingers crossed they will manage to create a smooth and enjoyable combat, yet realistic and hardcore as it was promised before.

As far a direction blocking is concerned - I am neither for it, nor against it. But I hate the current system of holding just a single button and losing stamina. Where is the realism in that?!

The best, and most realistic approach IMO would be to have a timing related one button “block”, just like in Chivalry. So this is closest thing to real life - you react to your opponent swing by reflex and intuition. If you time it good, there will be an option for counter-attack. If you press it early, you can block the blow but end up in a disadvantage. And if you fail to react quick enough, then you get hit. Nothing hard to implement if @warhorse has the desire to scrap that stupid system of “lay and pray” stamina depleting button holding…

[Wenceslaus]

I still think that KCD has most realistic medieval combat game right now, even compare to M&B.
And I don’t think its anyhow easier, or less enjoyable.

I simply cant see how holding block and wait untill your enemy deplete your stamina is easy win strategy. I personaly try to perfect my timing to get counter attack or do not block at all (move away).

The realism is in the the fact that you play RPG and you let Henry do this automatic reflex action do that and rather manage his stamina (from witch point of view holding block too long simply doesn’t make much sense). When I used to do fencing I never blocked wrong side or had to think about it.

I just did it late sometimes.

So I have to admit that I like the idea of block having to be at lest approximately timed to work. Enemy could for example feint you easily if you hold the block too long so it would be unseless aggainst oponent with at least some skill. I would be also ok if hte stamina actually decrease slowly if you are holding the block longer.

But as I wrote, I cant see that as an issue. The only easy tactics I see now are:

a) Being able to push enemy out of the arena quite easily
b) Spam thrust even without stamina. Not 100% win tactics but work somehow.

[ragnaroc]

Have you tried what I wrote a few posts before?

“1 wait for him to attack you
2 do a counterattack
3 swing as many hits at him as you can (I changed the directions, but I don’t know if it’s needed)
4a if your stamina is gone retreat a bit so it will refill
4b if he counterattacks you do a another counter
5 repeat”

[McWonderBeast]

system of holding just a single button and losing stamina. Where is the realism in that?!

You have very obviously never Sparred or trained with a real sword and shield (or long sword) if you cannot see the realism there. Blocking takes stamina, swinging your sword takes stamina.

When I used to do fencing I never blocked wrong side or had to think about it.

As quoted above and again posted several times by many other practitioners, in real life these things are instinctive you are not actively thinking about what direction to block you just do. The difference between a successful block is timing.

So its logical especially in video game (where or instinct and perception is hindered) to not needlessly over complicate things with directional blocking.

IMO would be to have a timing related one button “block”, just like in Chivalry.

This is the exact system that is currently implemented.

The difference between Chiv and KC:D is a block no matter what has a negative draw on your stamina, but if your timing is good you parry the attack.

So this is closest thing to real life - you react to your opponent swing by reflex and intuition.

Yes if you don’t spam the block button like scared noob this is exactly how its implemented in KC:D already.

If you time it good, there will be an option for counter-attack. If you press it early, you can block the blow but end up in a disadvantage.

I am beginning to think you have little more experience in KC:D combat other then the brief (and not well designed tutorial).

If you had any amount of experience playing it you would know that trying to block or parry too early makes it unsuccessful and you get hit, and if your timing is just right you parry and a lil late is block with stamina drain.

Nothing hard to implement

Correct because it has already been implemented.

Have you tried what I wrote a few posts before?

“1 wait for him to attack you2 do a counterattack3 swing as many hits at him as you can (I changed the directions, but I don’t know if it’s needed)4a if your stamina is gone retreat a bit so it will refill4b if he counterattacks you do a another counter5 repeat”

Changing directions (as explained by the tutorial) in rapid succession is how you successfully engage a combo.

The combos (not sure if by design ) once engaged usually defeat the enemy right away no matter what health level.

So yes if you spam attack. you accidentally perform combos that defeat the enemy rather quickly. Its worth noting that this is not as easily performed on the cumans (especially if you don’t train very much in the arena first).

So congrats on learning to successfully master the first alpha combat build!

[Wenceslaus]

Yeah, tryied but stuck at point 2.

If you ment the counter attack with slow-motion then it is quite hard to achive it aggainst the hardest opponent. Not even speak about countering his counter.

[ragnaroc]

Changing directions (as explained by the tutorial) in rapid succession is how you successfully engage a combo.

The combos (not sure if by design ) once engaged usually defeat the enemy right away no matter what health level.

So yes if you spam attack. you accidentally perform combos that defeat the enemy rather quickly. Its worth noting that this is not as easily performed on the cumans (especially if you don’t train very much in the arena first).

So congrats on learning to successfully master the first alpha combat build!

I didn’t perform any combos that killed him instantly because I used german subtitles first and there is a string error with that hint-window so there was no explaniation at all. All I did was randomly changing the directions and spammed that.

Yeah, tryied but stuck at point 2.

If you ment the counter attack with slow-motion then it is quite hard to achive it aggainst the hardest opponent. Not even speak about countering his counter.

Well, then you have to train your timing a bit more .
As I stated in one of my previous posts I got hit a few times too, but it was manageable.

[ProkyBrambora]

That is basically the only way how to sucessfully fight.

Still, for the love of God, I am not able to defeat the most advanced fighter.
There is always one missed parry/block which ends up with me losing a lot of health or instantly dying.
Because I can hit the guy all day long without any effect, but he just lands three hits and I am done.

Also there is another thing bothering me. When you counter attack can you smoothly continue with your attacks?
Because when I parry I am able to land just that one counter hit and then nothing.

[Tsunamik]

Do you have full set of armor? I am usually not done so easily as you describe.

Against most advanced guy, I had great success with running towards him, locking in clinch, punching/kicking/pushing him and following with stabs. Rinse and repeat

[ProkyBrambora]

locking in clinch, punching/kicking/pushing him and following with stabs

this could work
Though I tried somethig similar, And sometimes he attacks before you are able to clinch.

To the matter of Armor. Yes I have armor from both previous enemies. Not the gountlets though, too much work to get them.
Problem is that I have kinda sucess when my armor is pristine on frist try. This frist try mostly ends with me ding frm some stupid mistake or the fighter stepping outside of that arena.
By the time of the second try, my armor is damaged and I am much more easily killed. And the more I fight the more damage I am recieving.

Also sometimes the enemy goes into rambo mode where he parries everything I throw at him.
He is then able to counter-parry a five times and by the fifth time I am sure to mess up my timing.

Though clashing might be the solution.

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

I see that you haven’t understood many of my views, sorry about this.
I will try to clear thing up:

First of all, I have some sparring experience with a longsword as well as with a katana. That’s aside, we won’t be comparing our accomplishments here.

I never said that blocking doesn’t require cardio (i.e. stamina) in real life. Quite the opposite! I meant that simply waiting for opponent’s strike is technically not blocking, so it is silly to drain stamina in gameplay.

And it is also silly to be in some kind of a “blocking mode” by holding just one button and lose stamina for doing nothing with it, because as I, you and many others said - blocking (parrying) in real life is done by reflex and you could do it in a middle of your own attack. You are not it some blocking mode, so to implement this in the gameplay there should be a timing related block button, not a holding block button.

And to avoid “noob” block button abusing you pointed, the game may actually implement a mechanic to punish you if you spam with it.
And yes, blocking should absolutely draw stamina, as well as striking and moving, as well as if you take a hit. Happened to lose breath after a hard blow to the body?

As for my gaming experience, you got it also wrong:

I DIDN’T cite the current gameplay in Deliverance - I tried to share my views ON HOW it should be in my opinion instead: “If you time it good, there will be an option for counter-attack. If you press it early, you can block the blow but end up in a disadvantage.” I wish to see this, not saying that this is right now…

So, I hope my views are clear now. Thanks!

[ProkyBrambora]

And it is also silly to be in some kind of a “blocking mode” by holding just one button and lose stamina for doing nothing with it

Although I agree with you that “bocking mode” is not much realistic. It is something you want to use as little as possible. Because loosing your stamina without striking the enemy is still your loss.
You will want to parry as much as possible and so the blocking will happen only when you time your parry wrong or in situations between enemy strikes where you are just trying to save as much health as you can. (I dont know if you can parry in this situation)

That means that in reality implementing “timing related block button” as you said, would change almost nothing for the player.

But I agree that in theory it is much better mechanism than “blocking mode”

Also I dont know what @McWonderBeast and you call “noob block spamming”. Because spamming “q” wont really help you.

[Vik]

Hi Jlyga, thanks for feedback, but to be honest, I really wonder whether you’ve tried to play a game or not

What McWonderBeast wanted to say was (I believe) this:

it is also silly to be in some kind of a “blocking mode” by holding just one button and lose stamina for doing nothing with it

There is nothing like this in the game.

there should be a timing related block button

There is one.

the game may actually implement a mechanic to punish you if you spam with it.

And such mechanic is there.

HOW it should be in my opinion instead: “If you time it good, there will be an option for counter-attack. If you press it early, you can block the blow but end up in a disadvantage.”

And that’s exactly how it works.

Now, I really could misunderstand what you want to express, but I’d say that our mindsets in this were pretty similar so I hope you will enjoy the fight at the end. Cheers!

[Jlyga_u_onacHa]

I think he is referring to other games with intensive hand-to-hand combat, like M&B and especially Chivalry.

In a situation with timing related blocking, a “noob” action will be to continuously click (not hold) the block button in order to “catch” the right moment for a block. But as I said above, an easy program algorithm may be implemented to punish the player if he does it, like missing the strike and getting hit all the way.