I’m a medieval enthusiast and a practitioner of HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts), and a weapon that i love to use is the Zweihander, or as we call here in Portugal the Montante.
I would like that Warhorse Studios implement this weapon in the game. Imagine Henry wielding one of those against 5 bandits or Cummans for me would be a delight… I do not know that in Bohemia in 1403 people used this weapon in the battlefield, but i see weapons and armors from Germany and Italy in the game, why not the Zweihander that Germans used a lot?
Well, what my fellow warriors think about it?
Here are some videos explaining the usage of this weapon for those who are not familiarized:
Correct me if I’m wrong, mate, but isn’t the Zweihander a hundred years out of period for this game? It was my understanding that they were in use in the early 16th century.
Personally, I’d think an estoc or a classic type XVIa longsword would be a better fit for the time period. Either way, it’d be nice to see more half-swording, or even incorporate a murder stroke…perhaps as a mercy kill animation?
Montantes are used since the 12th century in Portugal, basically this weapon was well used in the battles of the “Reconquista” (reconquering) of the Iberia (Portugal and Spain) from the hands of the Islamic Moors.
This weapon are used from the 12th century until 18th century in various European countries, but was not famous as the armsword, bastard sword, longsword, spears and halberds because the Montante or Zweihander was too expensive to have compared to the other tipes of weapons. It was also used by William Wallace in the battles of independence of Scotland in 1314.
The Zweihander became more famous in the Renaissance period, hence the confusion that people have about this weapon, that it was used and developed only in this period, what is not true.
This weapon was carried like spears resting in the shoulder of front-line warriors, not in a sheath like other tipes of swords due to his massive size.
I hope that clarifies your understanding about this weapon.
What kind of sauce do you like the most I could give you?
You said sauce instead of source and I could not let the joke pass hehehe …
Here is one source i found quickly to answer you, this needs a more elaborate research, since Wikipedia is not a reliable source and everything regarding this type of weapon is wrong… In Scotland they call it Claymore, but is the same category of sword as the Zweihander.
No they didn’t neither did Germans and Italians (at that time).
I don’t know much about 12th century Portugal, but I’m very sceptical about anything like Zweihander in 12th century (not even longswords were used at that time).
Unless you provide some reliable evidence.
(Note that terminology was very inconsistend in middle ages, so usage of the term montante is not evidence about Zweihander, it can easily refer to different kind of weapon)
Why? You based your statement and put a link of Matew Esten from Scola Gladiatora showing the Montante of Willian Wallace used on 1314, but according to you, they don’t used this type of weapon in that time… WTF???
And this video is better them my various exemples in the original post? I linked 4 videos, and 3 are from Matew talking about the Montante. Sorry “clever guy”, you didn’t even bother to check my original post to come here and boast.
I train with this kind of weapon 3 times in the week and you know more them me, fine. Wikipedia is the source of all knowledge and i didn’t know we have here a historian expert formed in the “Wikipedia University”.
Are you sure? Do you even is German or Italian to begin with? Don’t talk about things that you clearly don’t know.
So you can shut up about that, no? You don’t even know the fucking classification of the weapon. Zweihander, Montante, Spadona, Claymore is all in the same category of two handed swords, no matter the model or the time they are forged or the name that every country uses to this TYPE of weapon, they are the same thing, no matter the century.
Do you even know about the “Reconquista” and the history of my fucking country? No, you not. You are just trying to be the “clever guy”. The Crusades started in the same century, the “Reconquista” was even promoted by the Pope of that time as a “Crusade”.
And yes, Montantes were used in both movements.
You are completely wrong. See the 4 videos i posted in the first.
Are you insane? The longsword appeared after the “Viking” era between the 11th and 12th century. The “Vikings” evolved the Spata from the Romans into a armsword, after that in various regions of Europe the armsword evolved to the bastard sword and longsword. You’re only shitting in this post.
Maybe you are not informed, but you can use two things if you make the necessary effort:
1- Your brain.
2- Google.
Because what i will provide to you is my middle finger and i don’t have the obligation to provide “sources” to a guy who came here only to boast.
Why? You based your statement and put a link of Matew Esten from Scola Gladiatora showing the Montante of Willian Wallace used on 1314, but according to you, they don’t used this type of weapon in that time… WTF???
Did you even watch the video? Matt mentions several times that the so called “Sword of William Wallace” is almost certainly not the actual sword Wallace used.
And concerning the “sources” you linked in your first post:
The four links you provided are all about how one is supposed to be or how one could use a Zweihänder, not about when they were used.
And for everyone else passing by and reading this: Don’t be fooled, Greatswords/Montantes/Zweihänders DO NOT belong into KCD because they were not used in the early 15th century.
Wow you got very emotional.
I will ignore your various insults, but I think it would be better if we can have discussion without them.
Did you watch the video? I would recommend it, because it is quite relevant to our “discussion”.
If you don’t want to watch whole video, watch just after 7:00.
It is better in because it discusses William Wallace (which you used as example of Zweihander in late 13th/early 14th century) and its authenticity.
Nothing wrong about videos you posted, but there is nothing in them about usage of Zweihander in 12th,13th,14th and early 15th century (If I missed something in the videos which discusses that, please point me to it)
I do know about Reconquista, but as I As I stated: I don’t know much about 12th century Portugal. So If you have some evidence of Zweihanders being used in 12th century Portugal I would be very interested in it and you can easily prove me wrong.
Don’t take my word for it. But I think we can agree that Matt Easton knows something about words:
(5:55 if you don’t want to watch whole video)
Perhaps your Google and brain are better than mine, but I was not able to find anything that would support your claims. But if the best source you can provide is middle finger…
BTW William Wallace used his Zweihander in 1314? I wonder how, because he was executed in 1305.
why don’t just agree to dis-agree ( me: neutral)& drop it as the likely hood of it being used is none to no way by the devs & end this? As insults creep in the thread goes down hill and would attract the locking hammer of doom.
I know a thing or two about Portugal in the 12th century and in all the books i have read and in all the museums I have visited I have never seen evidence on the montante being used pre XIV century. If you have that evidence, please post it here as I would be very interested. In fact the Iberian kingdoms were very slow in adopting the modern European style of warfare relying on lighter troops of infantry and cavalry way into the XI century when the new fashions arrived from France. So please post information of the actual use in battle of the montante during the 12th century.
anyways it is rather unlikely that great swords as we know them were used in any numbers (if at all) prior to the late medieval/renaissance, however ceremonial longswords that were basically just oversized longswords (essentially unuseable in combat) certainly did exist closer to the time period of the game…
This is the early 15th century. Forging a 5’5" to 6’ long sword is beyond the metallurgical capabilities of the time period in the 12th century, when they don’t even have “steel” in great numbers because blast furnaces are ridiculously rare outside of Catalonia. And while it might be technologically possible to have a fairly shoddy two handed blade made as early as the 12th century, it isn’t going to be anything like the montante as conceived in the 16th century. That and any large two-handed blade from AD 1100 to 1300 is likely just a cut-down warscythe which is single-edged and, as a glaive, made of crude construction. And any historical material from prior to the invention of the “proper” longsword is refering to a particularly long arming/bastard sword.
And you haven’t provided evidence to assert any of these outlandish claims which exceed both the technological and social means of the early and high middle ages. The treatises you linked are from the early modern era, not even the middle ages.
Also we know for a fact that greatswords weren’t present in Europe in the early 15th century, at least in any notable presence, as they would have otherwise shown up in Fiore’s work, which is among the most comprehensive treatise on all variety of weapons, including even chemical weapons.
Well said. In the Portuguese books they mention the knights’ kit as having a double edge"long sword" to fight from horseback. They mean a long arming sword not a proper longsword. And the archaeological evidence in museums doesn’t show any type of longsword until after the reconquista was finished. At least the ones I have been to both in Portugal and abroad.
Another way to think about this is what would’ve been The impetus to create a montante in the 12th century. The heavy lance would’ve just been introduced as well as the mail hauberk and armies would be transitioning from lightly armed, highly mobile troops to heavier armoured ones. There is no mention of pikes or any other polearm which would make the Montana useful and full plate was 200 years away. So why would the 12th century Portuguese develop such a weapon?
This is of course disregarding the technical limitations of building one.
Greatswords also don’t even have much of a purpose in warfare in this period. The primary use of greatswords is a tactical one, dispersing pike formations and possibly being able to cut through pike shafts, although that’s obviously a context dependent feature that might have been very common. When the average soldier is a lightly armored spearman with a sturdy shield or a glaiveman, there isn’t much motive to bring out a greatsword as spears and glavies are much shorter and less exposed than pikes.
And this is of course ignoring the fact that greatswords, contrary to popular belief, did not have much of a purpose on the battlefield. For all of their hype, Spadone, Montante, Zweihanders, etc didn’t stay on the battlefield for that long. They show up occasionally in documentation, but we know from treatises about them that their primary use is actually protection. Their main users were custodians defending patrons from assassination or abduction.
Meanwhile in regards to old two handed blades from the early/high middle ages, this cut down war-scythe/glaive from the morgan bible is the only one I’m familiar with. But they weren’t popular, seeing as how infrequently they manifest in illuminations or manuscripts, which isn’t that curious when they’d be garbage for penetrating maille armor. The dane axe and bardiche would be utterly superior, and have greater reach.
Here are some historical swords Two-handed sword. No: LRK 13639.
Swedish, c1658
Length: 1010 mm (39.7 inches)
Blade: 862 mm (33.9 inches)
Weight: 1735 g (3.47 pounds) * Ceremonial Two-handed sword. No: LRK 5666.*
Swedish, c1658.
Length: 1025 mm (40.3 inches)
Blade: 933 mm (36.7 inches)
Weight: 1590 g (3.18 pounds) Two-handed sword. No: LRK 12959.
Solingen, Early 17th century.
Length: 1350 mm (56.2 inches)
Blade: 961 mm (37.8 inches)
Weight: 3010 g (6.2 pounds) **
Two-handed sword. No: LRK 16660.**
German, 17th century.
Length: 1428 mm ( inches)
Blade: 1048 mm ( inches)
Weight: 2730 g (5.46 pounds) Two-handed sword. No: LRK 16662.
German, Late 16th century.
Length: 1790 mm (70.4 inches)
Blade: 1250 mm (49.2 inches)
Weight: 4630 g (9.26 pounds) **
One-and -a-half-handed sword. No: LRK 10972.**
Southern German, c1550.
Length: 1252 mm ( inches)
Blade: 1019 mm ( inches)
Weight: 1500 g (3 pounds) Two-handed sword. No: LRK 12947.
German, 16th century.
Length: 1185 mm (46.6 inches)
Blade: 954 mm (37.5 inches)
Weight: 1240 g (2.48 pounds) **
Two-handed sword. No: LRK 12667.**
German, 16th century.
Length: 1225 mm (48.2 inches)
Blade: 904 mm (35.5 inches)
Weight: 1310 g (2.62 pounds) One-and -a-half-handed sword. No: LRK 12913.
Probably German, c. 1350
Length: 1170 mm (46 inches)
Blade: 829 mm (32.6 inches)
Weight: 1280 g (2.56 pounds) **
Two-handed sword. No: LRK 12716.**
German, c1500.
Length: 1340 mm (52.7 inches)
Blade: 955 mm (37.6 inches)
Weight: 1390 gr\ (3 lbs) One-and -a-half-handed sword. No: LRK 12711.
German, c1475-1525.
Length: 1153 mm (45.3 inches)
Blade: 932 mm (36.6 inches)
Weight: 1320 g (2.9 lbs) Ceremonial Two-handed sword. No: LRK 6362.
German (probably Passau) c1600.
Length: 1275 mm (50.1 inches)
Blade: 1000 mm (39.37inches)
Weight: 2330 g (5.1 lbs) Ceremonial Two-handed sword. No: LRK 16370.
German. Late 16th century.
Length: 1422 mm (55.9 inches)
Blade 1029 mm (40.5 inches)
Weight: 2700 g (5.9 lbs) **
Ceremonial Two-handed sword. No: LRK 6956.**
Brunswick type. German. Late 16th century.
Length: 1893 mm (74.5 inches)
Blade: 1313 mm (51.7 inches)
Weight: 4830 gr (10.6 lbs) Ceremonial Two-handed sword. No: LRK 6941.
Brunswick type. German. Late 16th century.
Length: 1817 mm (71.5 inches)
Blade: 1240 mm (48.8 inches)
Weight: 3970 g (8.75 lbs) * Ceremonial Two-handed sword. No: LRK 16371.*
Brunswick type. Munich, c1550-1575.
Length: 1643 mm (64.7 inches)
Blade: 964 mm (37.9 inches)
Weight: 3500 g (7.7 lbs) Two-handed sword. No: LRK 12706.
German. Late 15th century.
Length: 1473 mm (58 inches)
Blade: 1066 mm (41.9 inches)
Weight: 2720 g (5.9 lbs) * Two-handed sword. No: LRK 12715.*
German, c1475-1525.
Length: 1382 mm (54.4 inches)
Blade: 1055 mm (41.5 inches)
Weight: 1550 g (3.4 lbs) Two-handed sword. No: LRK 5480.
Germany, 15th century.
Length: 1375 mm (54.2 inches)
Blade: 920 mm (36.2 inches)
Weight: 1600 g (3.5 lbs)
Not to mention some of these were used militarily. And think the military would have to have gotten the idea from somewhere. Most likely there were people using these types before as mercenaries, bandits, or even a blacksmiths testing out thei R smithing limit. And note that they are all light enough to our young blacksmiths son to use as well.
