Early gunpowder weapons?

Story & Setting
#63

You are right! Great post!

Unfortunately, gunpowder weapons of early 15 century were effective, yet very primitive - hard to operate fuse guns with limited range and accuracy, slow reloading time and a bunch of other technical problems. They were effective only when used in formation by a lot of soldiers. On a single combat I would stick to the sword for that era. To implement guns in Deliverance, it would take a lot to consider and even more to program properly… Suppose too much for @warhorse to do for Act I, but maybe in Act II and Act III we will see guns, why not?

#64

suggest you read this page:
http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/handgonne.html

He hits 80% of the time on a mansized target at 25strids… with a copy if a Tannenberg gun.
Anyway, hope we do get guns in the later acts, since they where used historically, so naturally they need to be in the game

#65

Yeah friend,
but the point is that he hits 80% of the time with a MODERN made gun, REPLICA of Tannenberg gun, but still a modern made piece.
Believe me, back then the guns weren’t so accurate. As for having them in the future acts, it will be interesting to see if devs could pull this up.

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#66

If you have data on any experiments with originals please share them.
Otherwise you just believe that they where less accurate.
Iam not saying you are wrong, but if you can’t back it up with evidence, then it is just your opinion, and not a historical fact. :wink:

Adding firearms to the game is easily done.
Cry-engine is at its core a first person shooter. Firearms is already supported. Just make them pretty hard to hit with… but hit hard.

1 Like
#67

early guns being used by a local black smith son in a time where such weapons were rare and hardly used in combat, if at all, much less every day livelihood, isn’t very thematically consistent nor historically plausible.

once the novelty factor wears off, no one will use it anymore because the bow and crossbow are far more accurate and efficient.

#68

From New Stretch Goals

#69

At this point in time the local blacksmith was in fact able to make firearms, where he could not make crossbows.
And if they where so ineffective, why where the Hussites so fond of them?

The replica used by the guy I linked to, is a copy of the Tannenberg gun, date Pre 1399.
(since it was found on the sport of a castle destroyed in 1399)

I agree that they should not be used by a typical solider or guard. But they where uses on the battlefield.
(the battle of Beverhoutsveld in Flanders on the 3rd of may 1382. to mention one
they are also mentioned when we look at the crecy campaign, (1346))

There is simply no way around the historical fact that firearms was used by this point in time so there are no historical reason for not having them in the game.,

Who should have them?, how many? and similar, now that can be debated.

Books and articles about early firearms. (I put the title of the book in itallic)

Atzbach, Rainer. 2010: Die Belagerung der Burg Tannenberg bei Darmstadt 1399. Fundberichte Aus Hesse. 50 s.707-728

• Bretscher, Ulrich. 2009: Handgonnes (musketeer.ch) http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/handgonne.html

• Contamine, Philippe. 1980: War in the Middle Ages.[La Guerre au moyen âge].

• Edwards, J.C. 2004: What Earthly Reason? Medieval History Magazine. 7. s. 54-63.

• Krenn, Peter, Paul Kalaus & Bert Hall. 1995: Material Culture and Military History: Test-
Fireing Early Modern Small Arms. .Material History Review. 42. s101-109.

• McLachlan, Sean. 2010: The Medieval Handgonnes. Oxford. England.

• Pegler, Martin. 1998: Powder and Ball Small Arms. Wiltshire, England.

• Turnbull, Stephen. 2004: The Hussite Wars 1419-36. Oxford. England

1 Like
#70
  • book

The Artillery of the Dukes of Burgundy, 1363-1477
http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=UAL0SfuyUGQC

The Firework Book: gunpowder in Medieval Germany
http://books.google.com.ua/books/about/The_Firework_Book.html?id=EFe1AAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

Guns and Men in Medieval Europe, 1200-1500: Studies in Military History and Technology
http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=GMDgAAAAMAAJ&hl=uk&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

#71

Isn’t this game meant to be as realistic as possible? I think it would be less realistic if early gunpowder weapons such as the Handgonne weren’t implemented.

In fact, I think a medieval game - in the games period - without gunpowder weapons would make more of a fantasy game than with them. Provided that they are also using the cryengine, there are already several classes (which are very well documented) that are used to define a weapon, so implementation wouldn’t be as time consuming as you may think; you could potentially take an arrow and change it’s properties to suit that more of a Handgonne projectile, so essentially it could be as simple as refactoring.

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#72

by that logic, greekfire needs to be implemented.

handguns were rare in that time period and location. they were unwieldy and practically useless on an individual basis. any time spent on it means less time spent on weapons that make more sense and are far more useful. simple as that.

would you like all the weapons that are planned to have more time spent on them, or maybe other things as well, or do you want them to implement a gun(lets not talk about quick and easy implementation, there exists a thing such as q/a, so it’s going to take time), that you will use once for fun and never again? because realistically implemented gun is completely ineffective. and they were not used effectively until the hussite wars.

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#73

Greekfire wasn’t used on the battlefield in the area where the game takes place, guns were. used in sieges since 1360 something and by 1403 there were a few around, enough to arm the hussites a decade later anyways. Anyways it’s more a novelty item but I can’t image it taking that much time to implement correctly.

#74

Do you even read what we write?

Both cannon and handheld firearms was used during the siege of Tannenberg Castle (Hesse, 46km south of Franfurt am Main.) in 1399. We know this both from written sources and from the fact that archaeological work unearthed shots for firearms on the site.

The rebels in Flanders used firearms effectively in 1382. As I wrote.

In Denmark we have a firearm dated to the same time and from written sources we know that they where used during a danish attack on Gotland in 1402.

So you can’t get around the historical fact that they where used effectively way before th Hussite wars.

Sure, we can ague about priorities… but until now you have argued that they where not effective.

#75

the fact they were used doesn’t mean they were used effectively. and none of the locations mentioned are in bohemia.

until there is actual evidence, not assumptions, suggesting that it was widespread enough inside bohemia during this period that someone like henry would want to use in in lieu of a crossbow or traditional bow, i think it’s not worth it.

before you continue thinking how cool a gun would be. please stop and think how it is used, and whether henry traveling along the roads or backwoods would have any realistic use for it.

1 Like
#76

Some of us aren’t saying they should be used on an individual basis. If they were used during the time period there of the same importance to implement as other weapons that were used. There are pitched battles planned for Act 1, therefore there is a potential that gunpowder weapons could be used - Henry may not even get his hands on one, but they should be there - imagine being immersed in a large scale battle, among your comrades; you start to charge, look to your left and see a company of handgonnes blasting away.

#77

I would imagine firearms being used in sieges and big battles in this game. As i know they were not so accurate on longer distances. There was no grooving and the barrels were short. The trajectory of the projectile was not so straight. Don’t forget firearms had also psychological effect on horses and soldiers. Aldo I can not imagine Henry running with a hand-gone and killing bandits with it. Larger version were also used with a additional stick or pavese. I would rather see better working cold weapons than adding additional firearms.

What Weapon Will You Wield?
#78

http://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/uploads/default/4298/feab293a115e29a4.jpg

Píšťala (the 2 on the top) was short. Hákovnice was quite long, with barrel at length of about a 100cms, see the pic. And in the Czech language, these were distinguished as different guns by 1403.

As regards the accuracy - I don’t think that these were any less accurate then a bow. And then again, pistols are also quite inaccurate on larger distances, yet the Czechs today have many times more pistols than long rifles or shotguns. It depends on the job it is supposed to do. If it is taking a heavy cavalry apart from short to medium distance (the major use in Hussite warfare), then they were very, very good. If it is taking down a heavily armored foot knight, then again, very, very good. Of course, use against fast moving light cavalry or infantry in open field was limited.

And nobody is arguing that it should be a primary firearm to go after the bandits. But as in-effective as it would be in such a scenario, they were period firearms and the player should have the chance to try. Go, maybe take down one, try to wield it as a club, and die - surely. In other scenarios, such as defending a house, a bridge or castle entrance against heavy cavalry/infantry, with one or two soldiers behind you loading them and two soldiers in front of you keeping enemy at distance - why the hell not?

And which other game should have period firearms if not the one that takes place where the PISTOL got its name?

#79

Why would than muskets be used in volleys? They should be more accurate not? They were fabricated with better techniques and century’s later. Real accurate rifles were fabricated with grooving. Also imagine run with these in village on a quest to kill a bandit, these were used more in castles, battles and with paveses, you can also see the hook on them as they had a lot of kick. There are also short ones on your picture. Like theese.

#80

Please read again what I wrote.

Why would the opening sequence of arrows be in unisono? Why they actually were not used in volleys in Hussite warfare?

You can buy a smoothbore rifle made today. Abrams tank has smoothbore. Why? Why? Why? In 1403 because of technical limitations, today because of different use and purpose.

Pistols/píšťalas were short in 1403 and they are short today. Different gun with different purpose. I never disputed that. I only said that there were long barrel hákovnice available too. Kick? Well .357 has a greater kick than 9mil and yet it is preferred for self defense today. What I am saying is that there are plausible scenarios for successful use of firearms in the game. And that it would be ahistorical not being able to use them.

#81

Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not against firearms in this game. They are historically accurate to be there, but i would rather have functioning fencing than to have firearm just for the reality of the time. But I hope they will be involved at least in acts II and III. Also i see no use for them in small village fights involving max 3 fighters.

#82

‘for the reality of the time’ would be having them. Why would it also be replacing other aspects? It’s just another important aspect, among the many.

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