Those techniques were actually used in Azincourt - the french knights were rolling on the floor laughing - too bad there was a lot of mud this day 
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that’s is the reason why I’ve asked, because I don’t wont to get fool by someone who pretend to be a “messiah”. I can understand that you get mad when someone throw shit on your work or hobby, also I get mad if someone pretend to discredit my work (and happens very often since I’m a physician) but be rude with people who try to learn is the best way to help to spread ignorance
I am sorry, it is probably a misunderstanding. I wasn’t mad of you, or anyone, for that matter. I was mad because I saw how much influence this video has. With that said, if you feel that I personally insulted you, I beg your pardon, I meant no harm.
Furthermore, I should be grateful that you ask questions. I found a relatively well-written reply on a blog, [I’ll share it,] 1 and hopefully this will have some convincing power. : -)
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no problem, I’m glad that we have solved this and thx for the link I’ve found it very interesting =)
Shhhh
We dont talk about him here anymore
We dont say his name nor mention his videos
Though there are several topics where you-know-whos video is commented on.
So to learn of how people here look at You-know-who, here you go:
Lars Andersen: a New Level of Archery, debunked
New Lars Andersen video
The myth of arrow quivers on the back
Archery like the world hasn’t seen in hundreds of years
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You (Baron) posted the Lars Andersen video… so… he shows everything you need to put on the game. Starting by the quiver, that is not on the back of character (please, mate… do it right).
I´m also found of archery. Don´t pratice since the 90´s (I learned and user to shoot on countryside… my family used to desportive hunt on snakes and boars)… no shooting range experience.
I used either composite and traditional bow. I was far from Lars Andersen skills, but have a good aim and rate of fire.
About the lethality. Composite bows are very lethal. They have between 80 and 90lb of “force” and the damage they done is comparable to a .38 revolver. But the traditional bow have only a half of this power, and is no better than a .32. It is one shoot kill if you hit the heart, spine or brain, but you have to land a lot of arrows if you want to kill something without hitting the lethal parts.
The problem that every game have is hit points. In real life, if I hit your liver you wont die in minuter or hours (by bleeding and/or infection), but you will surely be out of fight. But in a usual videogame you just lost some HP and can strike me back. So, the problem is not the arrow damage, is the effect in virtual bodies. How to manage this in a videogame? the old Operation Flashpoint and ArmA franchise give you the answer.
About the aim. You can´t put a crosshair. Modern bows, even with aim reticle aren´t acurate. You need a lot of years of pratice to start to pinpoint, and even then, you will still miss some shoots, especialy during action (when my family hunted boars there was aways someone holding a shootgun to the ocasion of the animal come less than 20m close to us… just in case). But them comes the crossbow. That thing is very powerfull (comparable to a carbine) and precise, even in distances over 100 or 150 meters. You can literaly have a rate about one shoot one kill. With a ordinary bow you must be Robin Hood or Legolas to do that. First time I shooted with one of those the bolt pierced all the aparatus on the target pratice, a hollow brick wall and stopped inside the engine of gramma washing machine (that was “so happy” about it lol). It´s no odd that this weapon was banned by a lot of kingdoms back in time. It is the same when yankes used their shootguns in WW1 trenches.
Whatever. KCD is a realistic game but not a simulator. I wished this is a sim (as ArmA… but good), but I also like irreal gameplay (as Skyrim, Dark Souls and even Dragon’s Dogma and Monster Hunter… by the way: I love all those games). So, I´m good with everything you decide. I realy wish a shooting system that let me shoot like Lars Andersen (because that should be very fun)… I wish a crossbow that work like a medieval kind of Barret (without the scope, of corse). And, for God sake… change that TES-copy-UI that even the stoled icon is the same of Skyrim. You are a lot better than this.
S!
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About the lethality. Composite bows are very lethal. They have between 80 and 90lb of “force” and the damage they done is comparable to a .38 revolver. But the traditional bow have only a half of this power, and is no better than a .32.
Source?
No source about the comparison between arrows and bullets… it’s rought target pratice impressions, but I can do some research and calculations here (I will, just need time to get all real data). But the power of different kinds of bows is based on the models factory specs. Reference used is the “Master” products, that is a brazilian trademark (http://www.arcosmaster.com.br/ no english version, sorry). All my bows and crossbow were made by them. I knew (will find the reference) that english longbow has about 80lbs power (Master’s longbow is about 20lbs)… the mongol curved bow is amost the same power. But most of bows used around de world in that time had less power. I believe (especulation) that they were around 40lbs or less.
A roughly comparison video about it:
But the lad used a modern composite bow (by Master’s specs it wont have less than 70lbs), that is probably a lot stronger than a medieval regular bow. It is stronger than that pistol used in video.
But I believe that this discution asks some real data and calculations… and I will do that.
Curiosity: Can you tell me what kind of bow are you trying to representate ingame and what data are you alread using? This will help me a lot.
S!
You are pretty fare from the facts about wood longbows.
The longbows found on the mary rose was mostly 140-160 pounds… (but some down to 100 and up to 180)
Source: The great warbow , by Strickland and hardy
Same book mention that Turkish bows was properly usually 60-100pounds so that fit what you wrote.
Composite bows are more effective. a test with replicas showed that a 74lb wood longbow mange the same velocity as a 60pund composite bow.
I know for a fact that arrows are no where near the lethality of a .38 or really any fire arm. I have an 80lb compound bow, and i hunt rabbits with it on occasion. There have been times where ive shot a rabbit in its mid section and it took almost two hours to die, after it crawled into a drain pipe where i couldn’t get to it.
Mean while, .22s can drop a rabbit instantly with one shot, and a .22 is a hell of a lot smaller than a .38. Arrows to be honest are quite terrible at killing things when compared to bullets.
Just because the arrow was able to slide through the sand easier than the bullet, does not make it stronger. Arrows can actually go through bullet proof glass, it has to do with the way bullets squash up when they hit hard surfaces, but the velocity of an arrow is much lower, as is the force behind it.
I stopped reading right about here.
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No archer can pull 140 pounds in a simple bow… only if they are Ironman contenders lol. I found a more reliable source about B&A performance:
The lads tested a lot of historical bows and measure the speed of their arrow (that is a more useful information than pull strenght, that itself don´t realy means the exactly shoot power). Based on that speed you can use the arrow (spine and tip) weight to calculate both their balistic curve and their hiting power. Based on the data on this site (must verify their autenticity, but look like plausible) the historical bows lauched those arrows much slower than modern composite (177 feets per second in the english longbow and 325f/s the Master’s composite, but this one using carbon arrow).
This pulling weigth is not a universal standard, so I believe that arrow speed and weight is a much more realistic (and pratical) method. I used this afferiment just because it was the only data I had when first posted.
What do you think about this?
The lethality of a weapon is not a simple task to measure.
First arrows and bullets work different. An arrow is a heavier mass flying at a slower speed, and a bullet is a lighter mass flying at a much faster speed.
The major advantage of a bullet is being very easier to hit with much more precision. But it also loose enegy faster when hit something. That is why arrows can pierce thought bulletprof vests (also as a combat knife). The lethality of that? Is where you hit. I compared an arrow with a .38 because they can instant kill (or not kill) animals with the same weight when you find their heart (mamals) or headshots. And use both in similar distances. Used both to hunt rattlesnakes and smaller anacondas… but I don´t use any of then in a boar (crossbows are much more reliable).
Bullets (in small calibers) are, also, more sensible to soft and hard tissues than arrows. That is why the .22 is more efficient against small animals. It pierce the soft tissue (skin and flesh) and then rebounce in the bones and pierce more soft tissue. The .38 just exit the body by the other side. But if this is an animal bigger than a habbit you will need a bigger caliber, as the .38 or a bow. In Brazil we use to hunt capivaras (the only translation I found is capybara… I don´t know if people outside know the specie). And, finaly, is because this animal (and the snakes) that I compared the .38 with an composite bow.
The 13g .38 special projectile travels around 679ft/s and a 160g arrow (I don´t know about the tipe used ingame, but an wood arrow with hunting tip weigths about that… but it´s not a standard) travels around 177ft/s (the english longbow) and 325ft/s (a modern composite). And you must know the distance to know this impact force (arrows have a more homogen balistic curve, but a bullet is straighter for some time than drops very fast).
Anyway. With small weapons we rarely see a one hit kill. When we hunt and even on security/police tapes. It depends more on the marksman skill than the munition. Russian police snipers use a kind of .22 because it´s speed and, because that, acuracy (in about 50m or less). I can hit you with a .45 and you survive… you can hit me with a .22 and kill me with one shoot… and a .45 and a .22 have different flying patterns, so lethality is a very subjective thing. The only thing we can use to simplify the discussion is the weight/speed relation (energy).
About arrows (that is what we have ingame) we will only be able to be realistic if the engine works as in ArmA (leg shoot make you fall, arm shoot stops you from use it, head and torso shots kill… but the game use rifles… so, that is why this lethality). In a game with HP I think that it is plausible (i saw the last alfa video on Youtube)… you don´t die one hit, but is not a good idea being hit. This will be interesting when we can use shields (if we can).
And yet we HAVE simple bows exceeding 140lbs. Who do YOU think was planning to shoot those bows from Mary Rose?
Just leaving this here for you:
Firing a 170lb bow.
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Blood hell, mate… impressed here. Do you have some data about this arrow speed?
the book i mentioned earlier give some numbers in its appendix
All shot with a 150pound bow: but different arrows. both different wood and different arrowhead.
(arrow 2 is a typical war arrow from the period)
arrow 1 (53,6g weight) Velocity 64,65-70,07 m/s Range 212-328m
arrow 2 (95,9g weight) Velocity 52,28-53,36 m/s Range 228-234m
arrow 3 (74,4g weight) Velocity 57,48-58,24 m/s Range 258-260m
arrow 4 (57,8g weight) Velocity 62,25-63,09 m/s Range 291-302m
arrow 5 (86,6g weight) Velocity 53,52-53,59 m/s Range 230-239m
That fits numbers from another test I got from another book.(they say 50-55m/s)
The two heaviest arrows had an impact KE (J) on 89,9 and 80,1. the others at 75, 67 and 64.(following the weight)
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This matchs exactly the data in the site that I posted the link. But, in that site, the english longbow that match the 175 ft/s (53,36 m/s) was a Pacific Yew with 55lb.
That is why I sugest that we don´t use pull force as a conclusive data… because those guys must check this with different methods. The arrow’s speed and weight are all we need to know.
I also searched for another sources about modern composite bow’s arrow speed, and they matched the Master´s specifications… I believe that modern composite bows fire their arrows in that 325ft/s (99m/s). But I blieve that this arrow speed is with carbon fiber and other light materials
I´m talking about modern composite bows because I believe that a lot of people here has real experience with them.
Well, the first problem with that page is that they don’t use the metric system, and if you want to be taken serious with any sort of science you need to do so. (with the exception of the pull of a bow since that is traditionally defined in lbs)
If you use a heavy bow with a too light arrow that actually cut its range since it will not fly true.
That is why you would get the same velocity with a strong bow as a week one. The arrows need to fit the bow.
The book mention that 80J is what is needed to be lethal.
That the initial Ke (J) is in the 111-134 J range. and the impact I mentioned above is at the ranged mentioned.
Arrows are very good at keeping its velocity and hit with 76-82% of the initial velocity. (they accelerate when dropping down at the end of the flight)
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What is the difference to Science if using ft/s and m/s if?