An interview with Daniel Vávra about #gamergate

Off-topic
#41

like seriously? your attacking me now for lack of emotion about events happening (for the most part) before I was born to people I didn’t know? If so than i am guilty of that. the 2. WW things wern’t a good idea in the first place. Raising the questions that marx did was importaint and nessecary. Edit: I probably overreacted there.

Well yeah the guy was a philosopher, his idea of a utopia is not suprisingly utopic. The Bolsheviks weren’t the only ones that wated to implement his ideas in some form, there is a ridicules amount of communist factions and they don’t all opose real democrasy. Socialdemocrasy after all does have it’s roots in these “delusions” too and everting in between is possible. There are less known short lived communist states like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Soviet_Republic or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918-19#9_November_1918:_Two_proclamations_of_a_republic, they are probably all not entirly democratic when current standards are applied (I don’t know that’s why i’m being vauge) but let’s not forget that, the first Czechoslovakia aside central european democracys didn’t survive the interwar period. The point is that they would have had different properties than the sowjetunion, but also that they are all outdated modles and are most likely not representetiv of the current european left ideas.

I very much doubt anyone thinks marxist utopia is in reach but does that really mean giving up compleatly and not taxing rich peope until they effectivly become nobility? The reason that the utopia doesn’t work is because there are “powergamers” who would exploit the system, how is it a better idea to let capitalists who already own everthing operate without restrictions.

I apoligize to anyone who thinks this is too of topic but i felt like defending myselfe.

#42

I don’t care about your emotions, I was just reffering to the apolgetic tone of your post.

So? I said that marixst communism is utopia for fools, I didn’t say that everything what Marx has said is wrong. Fact that social-democratic ideology has it’s roots in Marx’ teaching doesn’t oppose the fact that communism as described by Marx is just a delusion.

  1. These states were not communist according to Marx, simply because they were states. It means they had very little in common with communist utopic ideas and communist idea was again just used to fool stupid people.

  2. I really don’t get that comparision of the first czechoslovakian repubulic democracy with short life of inherently totalitarian communist states. Before 2. WW czechoslovakian democracy was one of the most advanced democracy in the world back then and was ended by german invasion.

No, the Marx’ utopia doesn’t work because it completely ignores human nature. It can’t work because people are NOT equal, and never will be. And “communism” of different factions which you were speaking about will never work well for people simply because you will NEVER make more just society by taking money and power from individuals to the state. And that’s what “realworld” communism is all about.

Don’t apologise for off-topic, because this is highly related to the orginal topic - SJWs are basicaly just commies in disguise, using noble goals to push their own not-so-noble agenda.

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#43

that was not supposed to be a comparison between the 2. What I was getting at is that all these states like the sowjetunion where established in a time in which all the newly esteblished democracies in central european faild, the first czechoslovakian repubulic being the exeption.

These dictatorships were the result of civilwar like circumstances or actuell civilwar. Also the states wern’t created out of no where, the sovjetunion, as the sucessor state of the russian empire, was building on the tradition of autocratic Tsars. So finally having defeted there opposition you can see where they would get the terrible idea that it should be repressed.

This does in no way make work camps more acceptable but it seems to me that a democraticly elected communist party in europe today probably would’t be stupid enouth to belive they need to build workcamps to prevent there opposition from raising up.

I asume not “NOT equal” here means “NOT all the same”. if so I agree that you can’t have one central place tell all people what exectly they have to do because there would need to be more room for small scale adaptions. But I would argue that every form of tax takes money from the individual to the state.

Justice is a really relativ thing, it doesn’t really work unless you apply spesific laws. Private property can’t truly be abolished but is inheritence really just? I don’t have a definit answer to that but it’s weird that you can claim properties that you have never seen before in your life, that has been inhabited or managed by other people for years, because a relative owned it before. Sure you can delay redistribution but if it doesn’t get done from time to time it will only get worse and potentally bloodier.

It all comes down to what you call communist. in america they tried to portray obama as evil comunist and they seem to have a tradition of painting everthing even slightly socialist or socialdemocrtic as evil stalinism. I can understand that the word communism isn’t populer after what states using the name have done especially in the regions governed by those states, but it shouldn’t be used to discredit everyone who wants equality,social justice,… Because the “Democratic” Peoplesrepublic of Korea has nothing to do with any of that.

#46

A really good read on the topic: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/10/how_to_end_gamergate_a_divide_and_conquer_plan.html

#47

It’s not bad, he made some good points, but some parts just cracks me up, and some are teribly biased. Unfortunately, his main idea about “moderate” gamergate supporters is not one of the good points, it’s actualy funny and only shows he doesn’t undestand a lot of things in gamergate.

Also if he thinks that aplogy might help, he aparently hasn’t seen what the Leader of gamergate has said about it. :slight_smile:

#48

You want to elaborate on that? I personally think his idea about gamergate moderates is spot on. I even count myself to them partially.

#49

Well, he asumes there is a significant number of people who actualy hate women, which is just bollocks. And he thinks so because for him being anti-feminist means misogyny. (“Even some of the anti-feminist members of Gamergate still try at least to appear reasonable in order to get their distasteful points across” - I can’t help but laugh reading this line). And by feminism he means 3rd wave feminism, because he could hardly find anyone speaking against C.H.Sommers-kind feminism. Everyone praises her. And he fails to see that those he consider “moderate” have actually exactly same “anti-feminist” views as those he aparently consider trolls (and from his examples you can tell very precisly who he thinks is moderate- Olivel Campbell, Liz, Jenni Bharaj,…) They can’t stand Anita like everyone else in GG. It means that his basic calculation is simply completely wrong, because those he consider “moderate”, actualy make more than 90% of gamergate. but more importantly, they definitely don’t think it is unfortunate to be part of GG and they have none of concerns about GG as he thinks they have. They don’t even think about leaving GG because of so-called women hating or harrasment “from” GG.

So on one side, he is overly “optimistic” about anti-feminism views, on the other side, he is not able to distinguish between actual hatred of women and criticism of 3rd wave feminism. Those “moderate” already laughed loud to this article.

However it doesn’t mean that he didn’t gave good advices. Stoping attack on GG with hit pieces and adressing some demands of GG regarding ethics are surely some of them. But it’s funy to make it as part of Divide-and-rule strategy and it’s definitely not something new.

1 Like
#50

Verzeiht aber könnte mir jemand auf deutsch erzählen,
um was sich diese Gamersgate sache dreht?
Mein englisch ist nicht so perfekt wenn es darum geht große texte zu verstehen/übersetzen.
Ich hab verstanden das da irgendwer Frauen hasst. Aber wer?
oder gewisse gruppierungen die lahm gelegt haben
und in dem letzten video… was meint er mit "it is to late!"
hat er wem gedroht?
Und wie steht Daniel Vávra dazu?
Also was sagt er so über die leute?

#51

Well, I think it’s also wrong to equate “misogyny” with “hating women”, especially given the topic of video games. That’s as wrong as equating “hating women” with “anti-feminism”.

Also your own number (moderates make up 90% of Gamergate) are purely speculative I guess. You have no any hard evidence for such claim at all. And even if it were right, where is your point? It’s no secret that the gamergate term is poisoned no matter what. One of the idea of the whole article is that these moderates he’s talking about should finally acknowledge that using the gamergate campaign for bringing their points forward isn’t a good idea anymore.

And I think you misunderstood him: with moderates he mean people who actually want something to change, no matter their motives. It’s not important if these moderates are anti-feminist. That’s not the point at all. The point is that he seperates those who are ready and able to discuss in a serious fashion and who use gamergate for pointing out mistakes and issues with the gaming press from those who only use gamergate to troll and harrass.

I guess it’s your own bias that you break every sentence and point of him (and others?) down to the feminist and misogyny and women related stuff. But that’s only part of the whole complicated issue. But maybe I just misunderstood you, who knows. :wink:

1 Like
#52

the definition of misogyny is hatred of women. it’s not the definition they got wrong, it’s how they’re using the word, as a catchall for any criticism they receive.

1 Like
#53

Good grief. Is this still bleating?

#54

just because the debate has been settled and gamergate has resoundingly won, doesn’t mean everyone’s going to believe the same. same reason where are still flat earthers and anti-evolutionists around.

#55

No, it’s not wrong. Hatred or dislike of women is the only precise definition of “misogyny”. It is also precise translation of that word from latin - “woman-hater” The fact that SJWs made it just a buzzword that means “I don’t agree with you” which only purpose is to shut down any discussion doesn’t change meaning of that word.

You are right, I have no hard evidence, I have just experience of participating in almost evrything what GG has done in last few weeks. And I know there is no group whitin gamergate that would “opose” those moderates and would be like “oh let’s harass women because we hate them!”. No such thing is happening on KiA, nor on 8chan, and definitely not on twitter. And my point was that since there is no 50:50 or 60:40 or whatever division among GG supporers, he can hardly apply strategy “divide and rule”. There is nothing to divide.

Well and that is wrong point. Gamegate is not toxic per se. This is just a virtual reality created by media. It’s actually quite funny. They created that image of gamergate as misogynistic movement by connecting every harassment to GG, and then they ask to leave it because it’s “toxic”, while it’s them who made that artificial image. And you can tell by just looking on their change of stance. At first, gamergate was for weeks to them just bunch of harassers and misogynerds. But almost all of them suddenly agree that there are some people in GG who actuly are not harasser and actually have some good points. How is that possible when they pictured all of us as terrorists for weeks? Because they were lying, and they keep lying even now, they just lie less. The toxicity is still a lie, it’s made up image by media. And none of those “moderates” think gamergate is toxic, so they hardly can aknowledge it and leave it.

Because using the same logic, we can easily state that “anti-GG” is toxic, that journalists oposing GG are toxic and that they should stop doing so. Many many many GG supporters were threatened (knife in mail, syrgine in mail, false firemen and police reports…). I can say that all those people opposing gamergate are responsible for these threats and proclaim them toxic. This is EXACTLY same thing as to proclaim GG toxic because of threats made against SJWs. It’s just a lie, guilt by association, and artificaly created image. And there is no reason to believe that such image wouldn’t be created about any other hashtag.

Anyone who uses gamergate to troll and harass is one of the gamergaters as much as anyone who harass gamergaters is one of game journalists. And he won’t stop harassment by ending gamergate. This is what i’m talking about all the time, he has this false conception of gamergate made by 30-50% trolls harassing women because of misygyny. It’s just nonsense and hence he can’t divide anyone.

Yep, I’m biased, and he certainly is as well. But I at least follow facts, and don’t consider opposing 3.rd wave feminisim as something grosss and I actualy also know what misogyny means unlike him.

#56

Yep, and Intel, BMW, Adobe, Nissan, Colgate, and many more are listening

#57

if there are bollos… i hope they will have a very terrible end!

EDIT:
Okay now i found a good article in german.
And all i have to say is… oh please. I’m loughing out loud about people
who can’t shut up his faces on topics like this. (mean about Zoe)
What is the problem?
God a men can sleep with girls to get more famous and money
But if girl do it, it is wrong?
so at 4chan and reddit… ILOLAY
So you know what… i never like 4chan and reddit.
Gamersgate… uhhh I’m afraid.
I never understand what is sooo Good on this websites roll eyes

#58

Well, aparently that article wasn’t good one. I won’t explain it to you, but you should know one thing - Gamergate lasts more than 2 months (which is unprecedent on the internet), and it’s VERY complicated. I advice you not to do quick conclusions. It’s obvious that you don’t understand it.

edit: And just for demonstration - Daniel Vavra supports gamergate from the beginning. You don’t have to agree with him, but it shows that it’s way more complicated than just “hating women”. I guess you don’t think that he hates women. :slight_smile:

#59

No i never think or said that Daniel hates womens.

Believe me i’ve read it now in german and i understand really good but,
People make it complicated.
I will better shut up… before i will get some death treats!

#60

Hehe you don’t need to shut up, you can write whatever you want, it’s just that if you think it’s about Zoe Quin, then you really don’t understand it and I really doubt that anyone would understand this mess after reading of one article.

edit: hahaha, I don’t thing that anyone on this forum would send death threats :smiley:

#61

I know that is now more about men against women.

To Edit:
Yes?! I will say "never say never"
Arrr it is hard to describe it with my bad englisch.
Arrr i hate myself

#62

Problem with KCD is Middle ages… :frowning: Women were discriminated at that time, point.

From historical point of view, and I strongly emphasize this is not my point of view, woman is the devil’s tool and she should not be trusted with important work. Thus the lack of female blacksmiths, shoemakers, fishers and other…
She belongs to the cooking, sewing, child care, “light” manual work (like chopping wood, ie.), and she should not be trusted with weapon.

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