Combat "Discussion" - Dev Spotted


#81

At least I have a reason for this issue. It is the same why waiting function does take so long. Complex AI. Right now the AI is not optimized yet, and NPCs have to think to long about their next action. We need to optimize this to make it faster and we need to implement a kind of priorizing system inside the AI.


#82

Insuficient explanation of combos is something I would add.
For example I have no idea what scarmaker or bellyache combo does. I know how it looks like, but we have no idea what are the effects, and consecutively no idea why even bother with them. Does it inflict bleeding on enemy? Does it stun him? Does it more damage?
I just hope that its not just fancy animation for otherwise common hit, as whole directional combat system would be basically pointless.


#83

I spent a bunch of time in the area in alpha 0.5. Learning combat was hard but doable. I agree with 213 don’t simply it. If there’s going to be a change, make it require fewer Groshen for the train sessions (or maybe be able to sweet talk the sword master into free lessons?
FWIW I preferred the sword master’s alpha voice to his beta voice. In alpha he was really calm but filled with hidden menace. Now he’s another loudmouth and screws up during training.
FWIW2 I found it much easier to dodge during a training session in beta than in alpha. Maybe I’m better than I was, but it felt easier.


#84

It’s possible to train for just 10 groshen non-stop. I.e. You pay once and choose “training” level and then you can fight non-stop. You will be using wooden swords and your enemy is quite skillful and agressive. I use it all the time and it makes you learn really fast too.


#85

Prioritize? Maybe, if an i7 quad or higher is detected, dedicate a hyper-thread to the NPC combatant AI?


#86

Personally i don’t want combat system to be simplified. I see lot of potencial in it.
But in its current state it is very clumsy and sometimes frustrating. Parry and dodges are very risky, so it’s better for me not to use them (which is shame). Animations are quite ugly (I hope they are not final).


#87

Parry/dodge is risky, yes, but it’s rewarding because you save a lot of stamina for your combo, and take away a lot of stamina from your foe. Which makes you plan your fight better eventually. I think it’s going be great medieval swordfighting game when it’s done :slight_smile:


#88

Yes but my problem is that it’s easier to win the fight if you don’t use them (at least for me).


#89

Combat sounds gentlemen - or lack thereof. I see theres a thread here with an old combat video in which there was much more groaning, faster based combat and the overall effect being more visceral. Right now its waaaaay too quiet and subtle with very little noise. People stabbing people is noisy!

So i have a saved point on that path going North in which you run into the Cuman swordsman raider and a bowman and have fought them a bunch now. When one gets behind you and is stabbing you, there is very little audio or video effect for that matter to let me know some guy is behind me stabbing me (did I mention the stabbing?). Spacial sound effects and more visceral weapon and wounding sounds with maybe a screen jolt for really bad wound. What was happening is I start closing my eyes and then silently die with very little fov or narration of what just happened. Maybe a jump to 3rd person for the killing blow to actually show a little bit of what just happened.

The drawing of the sword makes no sound and the sheathing is not satisfying eiter. Hitting others shields sounds like a small bump of wood and does not translate well to murderous rage. It seems as if they mic’ed up and actually recorded a sword hitting a wooden shield and perhaps the sheathing effect as well. There is a problem with this too literal audio -it doesnt convey the effect of drawing metal nor the vibration of hitting a shield. Make combat audio top notch and this game will soar I promise you.

The nature is unbelievably good btw -I have to say that in every post cause its that good.


#90

FWIW according to my windows cpu usage graphical display, on my 6 year old i7-870 cpu, I seldom go above 50% utilization. I’d expect more modern cpus would be gold bricking (loafing along) much of the time. So it would seem there should be cpu cycles available for AI purposes…


#91

Swords shouldn’t ‘ring’ when drawn. That is a hollywood ‘feature’ not installed on the originals. Either a faint scrape of wood or leather, or near silence is correct.


#92

Yeah, sounds are lacking so far, I imagine it’s in the works to make it sound nasty eventually.
Also, good point about no feedback on the damage you’re getting out of FOV.

It might be interesting to experiment with 3-rd person cutscenes during combat when your character performs especially good parry and/or killing blow.
We have this great rel-life fighting movements for our character but we’re not seeing them in 1-st person view. That’s a huge waste of time and resources as far as I can see, would be great to somehow make it better visible for the player to appreciate it better.


#93

Yes combat sounds ar terrible right now (I hope they are just placeholders). And i agree that sound i very imprortant for good feeling from combat.


#94

Now, I just spend like 8 hours in arena so I can voice some hopefully reasonable criticism.
Food and rest has ENORMOUS effect on combat it feels. I was fighting just fine, doing work as usual… but when I slept for few hours to get a daylight again (fighting in dark is hard) I got hungry. I didn´t really cared, it was on like 50% so I started fight… and man did I got fucking wrecked. I usually have like 70% parry success rate… when hungry I didn´t parry single blow. Furthermore, enemy was capable of evading almost all my hits. He was capable of breaking any combo I tried. And what was worst, he was able to start striking, and get into unbreakable chain of 5-8 hits, which totally destroyed my stamina and most of my health in single combo. That sucked… It all got normal after I ate same apple, so it was definitely hunger debuff.
So fight rested and stuffed! :smiley: This food penalty currently feels just bit too high.

Another really annoying thing - when you get hit, camera just shakes way too much. When I get hit into my shield with his lil short sword, I don´t really think that my character should turn 180degress and get hit 4 times in row. These uninterruptable chains are probably what most players think when talking about clumsy and hard to control. You just can´t do anything during that, and all it takes is to miss 1 parry or dodge and you can be screwed.

Next really important - stamina should have bigger base pool, or it should regenerate much faster. Most fights start with few hits, blocks, and after 5 sec, both opponents have 0 stamina and stare at each other for 15 sec. It really takes away from fighting experience, as it is more like waiting simulator, which is kinda wrong. I am personally for bigger stamina pools, and same regeneration - it should make player to think of stamina as resource over the course of whole fight, not just something hindering him from fighting. And it should allow to form a strategy - do I want to rush in, and attempt a quick win by flurry of blows? Or should I wait, carefully parry and counterattack into deadly combo, while retaining as much stamina as I can? Now, that is interesting! But currently, I hit 3 times, he blocks 3 times, we are both at 0, and wait… This also might be tied to stamina penalty for armor - it could be great balance tool, as unarmored fighter could have advantage of quite better stamina pool or regeneration, giving him atleast some chance at fighting armored opponent.

And probably most important think - for fights to feel really intense, ALL fighters need a lil less resilience. Average 1v1 fight in arena takes about 3-5 minutes in my experience. I am usually able to pull of 3-5 combos per that single fight, and about 10 successful strikes on average, usually stabs or counterparries before they die, which is just too much. It feels like a chore to win against single enemy, it should be faster and much much deadlier. I mean, 5 stabs straight into face, even with scarmaker combo should kill everybody.

Conclussion:
Less health, more base stamina -> stamina is now really the main resource, not just hinderance to combat rhytm.
-> fights are faster, deadlier, more strategic, more fun, armor is much more important.

More control during hit chains - I want to atleast partially still see enemy so I can react - and I want to be able to react, ATLEAST by well timed counterstrike or block, or some roll away. Not just stand there and die --> more control, more fun, less frustration

Lesser effect of food and rest - being bit hungry shouldn´t really disqualify player from combat :slight_smile:


#95

you CAN break up his chain even if you’re being hit, just time it well. I’ve done. I guess hunger/rest makes a difference though.
I managed to make 1 combo - pommel hit with short sword. It doesn’t seem to do much except getting my enemy off-balance, but my character is too slow to follow it up with another attack. I think it needs to be looked into.


#96

I found that combos starting with stab are easiest - pommel strike is almost trivial.
I also did scarmaker, and shieldslam, these are also quite easy. Twice I managed to hit with false edge, but its not very reliable. I once managed 4 hit combo, but don´t even know which one as it was completely random :smiley:

About breaking a chain - well how can I time it well, if I can´t see enemy because I am blurred and looking opposite direction after first blow? :frowning: It would be completely random in this case


#97

there is certain timing to the enemy’s swings. Takes practice, but it’s doable. It’s the same timing as parrying his counter-attack after he parries yours


#98

regarding stamina - stabs use much less stamina, and short sword seem to use less stamina than bastard sword or axe. It could be just me though :slightly_smiling:


#99

This is great that people enjoy it, but most casual players just want to hop on in and play a RPG which is what this is in the end… not take 2-3 hours trying to figure out this ridiculous combat system… it won’t sell the game and will only hurt it… other options need to be set in place to bypass this.

Hell even dark souls is a “hard” game that most people can pick the combat up in less then 5 minutes.


#100

Good point with testers and even designers just knowing exactly what to do to win. Testing with people that know how to exploit the game is probably very limited and it shouldn’t be just about winning a situation, it’s also how it feels and plays.

More i play, more i know how to deal with hard situations. 1v2 is not really an issue. 1v5 i can also win by exploting the game with backing, shooting with bow and then taking 1v1 duels with armored opponents. The problem is that i don’t feel like iam that good at it, it’s just that i know how to exploit the game, so winning (1v2+) fight is more work-around then actual success of mine and i don’t really have good feeling about winning against the odds.

I agree with the post above about the annoying camera shake and you loosing control when hit (even fully armored). Something Warhorse love to do is to take away control from over characters camera/head. I’s really annoying and if you are against more people, you can’t just stand your ground and hit back and maybe overcome them (again, sword against armor… you yourself said it does very little, but my characters camera=head goes flying, turns and shifts. I shouldnt be sent flying when hit by arrow either. I would love some smaller, micro feedbacks with main character doing some sound to confirm the damage. This camera flying around is annoying and probably should be reserved to “boss” or incredibly skilled warrior that is like 10 levels above you, telling you - not yet or you have to do really well.

Btw arena right now is just about practice and trying things against different oponnets. The oponnets are designed to survive for very long (which is good, you can test stuff out). If you go to the real world, you get the “real” scenarios. You can kill armored Cumans in like 5-20 seconds easily, badly armored can go down in 4 succesful hits streak.

So…i’d like to see more dynamic and fluid fights, don’t screw with my camera unless extreme conditions, faster/easy/instant switch between targets, button to force lock-on fight mode (free-roam slashing/stabs are really bad, very blocky, clunky - so give me ability to force “fight mode”, so i can feel like i’m in control rather than game determining when i can fight) and ability to stand your ground when fully armored when they just hit your armor with swords (kicks, push can ofcourse make me fall).