Combat System Discussion

Combat system
#41

[quote=“Janus3003, post:39, topic:2181”]
Definitely true, though one thing I’ll say in defense of little padding is that you don’t need an overwhelming amount of force to kill someone with a sharpened sword, […]
[/quote]That is an important point i think.
With a good sword and a clean cut, there is nearly no force needed at all to cut off an arm or wound someone mortally.

[quote=“Janus3003, post:39, topic:2181”]
A couple of my ARMA buddies want to put on gambesons, mask, and gloves, then try some winding with sharps. Not sure I have the guts/insanity to do the same
[/quote] Woah, that does sound very risky… but also very interesting (we only use sharp swords on tatami mats an so on to get a feeling for the effect and to learn how to get a clean cut).
Are there videos or experience reports online about that?

#42

this is the best example i’ve seen of a longsword technique video:

now, the difficulty with implementing this type of system, is that it would be somewhat restricted. remember, enemy reaction to your sword hit is procedurally generated, so they have to move and balance themselves after blocking, and it won’t always resemble the realistic way it’s done in the video.

there would have to be a lot of blending. like the same motion captured move in various stages or frames, which will be blended with the dynamically generated animation.

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#43

Depending on the year and country “swords” could be vastly different in weight.

Medieval Weapons book “Sword in Hand” By Ewart Oakeshott :

“The average weight of any one of normal size is between 2.5 lb. and 3.5 lbs. Even the big hand-and-a-half ‘war’ swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs”

The reason I have seen this same argument many times and unresolved for 30 years (about how fast weapons were and how hard, how and much/kind of movement you had to put into a swing to defeat armor unless you hit the gaps) is because the weapons and armor were one upping each other about every ten years. You only need to pick the right or wrong century to be right or wrong about this subject.

So for game purposes maybe a speed options is possible. Pick your own combat speed. I have done this as a mod for other games and I am not as good a programmer as I am a sword fighter. As such I am sure the professional DEV for this game could do this.

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#44

[quote=“DukePatrick, post:43, topic:2181”](about how fast weapons were and how hard, how and much/kind of movement you had to put into a swing to defeat armor unless you hit the gaps)[/quote] Defeat steel armor with a sword? By hitting on it? How should that work if you do not have some magic sword that can cut trough steel? Or do you mean something else?

Swords have their blade for a reason: cutting and that was their main use in an fight. Using a cutting-weapon against an uncuttable enemy seems rather pointless. That’s what poleaxes where for.

Most of the real heavy twohanded swords are from the 19th Century where every castle-owner thought he needed some swordlike object in his castle. And there are a lot of castles around…
Sure there are also some real heavy swords, but most of them are from the early middle Ages (Vikings, Alemanni) and where used in different circumstances.
I cant remeber having seen real heavy ones in museums (except some Executioner’s swords) but more than one that seemed ridiculously light.

#45

Speaking of the game purely - maybe these moves are just too complicated for a common guy to learn in a time period of weeks. It would be cool to see this kind of sword-play among noble knights, who were trained all their lives, though.

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#46

That’s a very clever idea, @Klogg. Also, I’ve been thinking that maybe implementing all of the guards, grapplings and stances of medieval swordfighting would be way too complicated, especially when the game aims to be about something more than medieval combat (and needs to spend money an effort on many other aspects, like immersion, horses, clothing, animations, story…). Wouldn’t it be cool to have a full separate game that was just about complex and realistic medieval duels? “Choose your fighter: you have chosen Fiore dei Liberi; your opponent has chosen Johannes Liechtenauer: ¡FIGHT!”

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#47

I did not say “can cut trough steel”. Thank you for asking what I really meant as most people seem to just assume rather than ask:

Even if your weapon was razor sharp at the start of a battle it soon became a “club” as the “sharp” was lost pounding on armor, shields and other weapons. But the relatively thin edge would still transfer the energy to the target differently than weapons that did not have such an edge.

Light weapons are about chopping and cutting, heavy weapons are about breaking and tearing. That includes breaking and tearing plate armor as well as flesh.

However, “Penetrating” armor has little to do with inflicting damage through armor in medieval melee combat. The thin edge of a sword will produce a lot of impulse damage that deform metal plates.

This trauma can at some point reduce your opponent’s physical level to a state that they cannot effectively defend themselves against the easy coup de grâc attack that comes last and “surgically” through gaps if killing your opponent is your intent.

#48

They haven’t done it yet. There is risk to it, but I trust the both of them to be safe about it. I’ll have to talk to them and make sure they still plan on doing it.

FINISH HIM!
LIECHTENAUER WINS. FLAWLESS VICTORY. FATALITY!

You shouldn’t be “pounding on armor” at all with the blade. Fighting an armored opponent is an entirely different beast than fighting an unarmored opponent, so much so that the medieval/Renaissance sources devote different sections to them.

Here’s an example of the “mordschlag” technique. It’s used because it’s effective. It’s effective because it will at least daze an armored opponent, and it keeps you from ruining the edge of an expensive weapon that you’ll need in good condition to kill other guys (who won’t necessarily be armored in plate and will be much more easily dispatched with a sharp edge than a blunt one).

#49

Correct, That was what I said in my my very first post, that is what I have been saying.
Hopefully the DEV will take this into account in their combat system.

#51

I love that organization. Many of our SCA members participate in this as well. This is also a good example of what I mean by the attacks not being the arcade speeds as seen in most games. (referring to when they do swing at each other) These are methodical attacks not a flurry of nonstop combos.

#52

the longsword is of course fast. but slower than the one-handed sword.
it has much more force and a longer fighting distance, and thats the point.

in a fight longsword vs. one-handed sword the longsword is only better if you keep your distance.
if the one-handed sword somehow comes into grabbing distance the longsword has a problem. better say its wielder.
i hope grabbing will be included witch takes a good part in combat when you start to wrestle…

that is all a bit complicated, and before arguing too much we should wait for a playable version.
for what i have seen this far it looks better than anything i have seen in a game so far.

#53

BotN have nothing to do with historical fighting… just another medieval inspired combat sport…
The rules promote wrestling and the use of unhistorical types of shields that is optimized for striking with the edge.
And all the “anti armour” moves are not allowed for safety reasons.
(like half swording and stabbing into the openings in the armour)

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#55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10B4oCreJDo I think this video show 1v1 a little better

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#56

To be honest: No, it doesn’t.

For one simple reason this kind of 1v1 fights have a serious issue: It’s not fighting for your life, it’s fighting for the first hit. Therefore those guys are all about quick and dirty, not about surviving.

The way you’re fighting is more of a mental attitude. It’s also a difference if you’re running for a gold medal or running from people chasing you.

#57

You right. It doesn’t show combat in a life and death scenario. But you know of any video that does? I don’t. Because there isn’t videos about it. Reenactment and competetive fighting is all there is. It’s as close as you get.

Unless you find a liveleak video about two people trying to kill each other. And even then, they aren’t professional swordsmen.

And of course they would be quick and dirty back then. It’s your life at stake. They only difference is that they maybe take more chances and as you said, first to hit. But the figthing methods and techniq is close to what they used back then.

#58

Seriously I wouldn’t find a video like this. If so it would be deleted sooner or later.

I think if you’re fighting for your life, you don’t want to die so soon. So it means you’re more or less waiting for your opponent to make a mistake instead of you doing a mistake. And a quick move could easily result in a quick death. As you can see in the trailer of the game on the battlefield, the here is touching the enemy’s blade with his blade to see if he’s an easy target or not. If he was, the enemy’s blade would have just moved way down. But since he’s moving his blade against the hero’s blade he shows at least strength and will to fight.

And yes it will be difficult to make a combat feel like it’s real combat.

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#59

I don’t know what kind of mindset they were in and neither do you. Noone knows how it felt to fight back then. We could speculate all day, but we’ll never know how it felt. It’s a hard thing to study, because you simply can’t do it anymore…

What you can do, is study what is written which communities like ARMA and others have done. And use historical advisors. That’s what they are doing, so it should be fine… I hope.

The problems lies in making a system around this for a game. Is it going to be a
"press B to counter and instakill",
“mount and blade 4 directions attack and block”,
“Or beat-em-up kinda games like how Ryse is”,
“skyrim attack and block”?

From what I’ve seen it looks pretty complex. Maybe a little slow, idk. Hope what we’ve seen isn’t just uncontrolable animations.

What I hope is a M&B type of combat but a little more complex. Not just 4 direction attck n blck. But a little more fluid tansitions from the different actions. I believe they said it wasn’t just animations, but physics involved, which sounds awesome. Can’t wait for the next video :blush:

#60

The video shows it exactly. You have a star in the middle representing head, arms and legs. I think depending on the direction you’ll attack the body part. Yet I’m wondering which button or movement is going to define, if it’s slicing, piercing or another type of attack.

#61

Regardless of what the combat mechanics are like; I hope that there isn’t a huge disparity when it comes to how many hits it takes to kill an enemy. Of course a heavily armored enemy should take more hits than an unarmored enemy, but I don’t want to have to place 10+ successful hits to kill an enemy. I also don’t want to be able to survive 10+ successful hits. 1-4 successful hits to kill an enemy or be killed by one seems ideal to me. Where and how one hits should definitely be a factor.

#62

disagree. if the player wants to keep hacking away at armor with a sword, he’s welcome to do so, don’t expect to be able to do anything after the 4th hit, or the 10th, for that matter.

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