Cumans' armament

[velizariy]

The helmet for the nobility is not necessarily distinguished by the presence of gold. Often the difference between a simple and expensive helmet lies in the field of assembly technology and design.
A simple example: the cuirass is expensive and pristizhnom armor inaccessible to simple infantrymen, the brigantine is cheap and accessible to all.

Helmets of elite warriors - they can not be many. And they should belong only to the commanders of the detachments.
Expensive technologies: a seamless dome or a dome with hidden seams, curved ribs, anatomical elements (half-masks and full masks), ornamentation and gilding, individual elements on the top of the helmet. You can not just take off the gilding and call it a simple helmet.

https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/uploads/default/optimized/3X/0/3/030e420270c4dec36d5945c459acf657ea861b4a_1_690x493.jpg
https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/uploads/default/optimized/3X/c/0/c03c7dec164199558b59c96359c41712924a2931_1_690x383.jpg
https://forum.kingdomcomerpg.com/uploads/default/optimized/3X/5/b/5b6f7b12fc45bfa84b0223f13212945ea88a1966_1_690x387.jpg
http://swordmaster.org/uploads/posts/2016-02/1454505251_shelom01.jpg

More simple helmets are made easier and not so exquisite.

---

The simplest helmets for ordinary soldiers.

I hope the visual difference is visible right away. If not - then I’m helpless.

[Lucem]

Yes, the cumans who invaded Bohemia looked probably a bit more European then they do in the game.

No, they aren’t supposed to look more european. Just take a look at the various frescos and manuscripts (something you guys probably didn’t do) featuring cumans in the 14th century, a lot of them show very lightly armed horse archers wearing felt hats and mail coifs.

Here are a few examples

Karaszko, 1380

church of Velemér, 1378.

Church of Székelydálya, Transylvania, 14th century.

Church of Maksa, Romania, 14th century

Chronica de Gestis Hungarorum, 1360.

Church of Bijacovce, Slovakia, late 14th-15th century.

I can post more if you want.

It was a design decision to let them look a bit more “cumanish” then then they would have been looked in the reality, and I already confimed that:

Well, then why didn’t you at least give them period appropriate equipment? you could have kept the “cumanish” look with 14-15th century equipment you know?

But it is not totally off and completely unbelievable. Again, the difference is not more then 200 years, but less then 160.

I don’t care wither the difference is a 100 years, 200 years, or even 10 years. History has repeatedly proven that people adapt to changes, even a decade makes a difference in how people dress, especially when they integrate with other cultures.

But this would make it very difficult for some players to distinguish them from other factions in the game, making the Cumans more unique and recognizable.

Well, firstly, doesn’t this go against what this project stood for in the first place? “historical realism” and “accuracy”. Secondly, as I said you could have given them period appropriate armour and they would have stood out just fine from the rest of the european factions.

[velizariy]

I think the problem was in the absence of a normal consultant when the first drawings of models and characters were created. Now to change - too big problems. We can only point out the problem. And hope that the studio will have free time to change something.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Otherwise, it is up to modders to fix developers’ mistakes…

[velizariy]

I’ll leave this quote here because I think that it reflects the problem of our dispute.

Люди видят что игра имеет высокий уровень исторической достоверности и они верят что за ней стоят не только прекрасная команда программистов и дизайнеров, но и внушительная группа историков. И все что они видят в игре - оно так и было в 15-м веке. И куманы были именно такими как в игре (именно такие - ведь у студии есть исторические консультанты ), и луки с колчанами носились за спиной (это ведь историческая игра - и вообще в Скайриме все лук также носят ), а кочевники естественно воевали все поголовно задоспешаные, пешими и на мечах (“сам положил десяток в игре” ).
Проблемы начнутся тогда когда люди будут указывать на игру как на источник - и по их мнению весьма авторитетный источник.

Rough google translation, I hope Mundhalai-khan correct it so that the meaning is not lost.

People see that the game has a high level of historical certainty and they believe that it is not only a fine team of programmers and designers, but also an impressive group of historians. And all that they see in the game - it was so in the 15th century. And the Kumans were exactly the same as in the game (just like that - the studio has historical consultants: smile:), and bows with quivers were worn behind their backs (this is a historical game - and in Skyrim all the onions are also: smile:), and nomads All fought in armor, on foot and on swords.
Problems will begin when people point to the game as a source - and in their opinion a very authoritative source.

[Lucem]

I doubt anything is going to change. The developers are in complete denial that their design choices for the cuman equipment are flawed. They seem to be very selective on what’s historically accurate and what isn’t, and all their arguments for the cumans consist of “100 years don’t make much of a difference”, “cumans didn’t change”. Also their fan base doesn’t seem to care as long as they can get their knights in shining armour.

[Mundhalai-khan]

“People see that the game is very historically accurate and they believe that not only a great team of developers, but also impressive group of historians. And all that they see in game - was so in the XV century. And cumans as well (exactly like that - Warhorse has historical adivsers), and bows with quivers were carried behind the backs (this is historical game - moreover, in Skyrim everyone are carrying the same way) and all of nomads fought in armor, on foot and in melee.
Problems will begin when people will start using the game as a source - and, in their opinion, a very authoritative source.”

[Mundhalai-khan]

That sums up all my thoughts.
But I hope that after the release of game some people will use this thread as basis for their “Realistic mod”.

[masozravapalma]

Complete denial sounds in my opinion differently than: “We are aware that they are not entirely accurate, but we made the design choice because of gameplay and so the enemies are more clearly recognizable”

[Lucem]

They never said “they aren’t entirely accurate”, they danced around the question and said that the way they are presenting the cumans still makes sense. So yes, they are still denying the flaws within their design choices.

[Tsunamik]

It was a design decision to let them look a bit more “cumanish” then then they would have been looked in the reality, and I already confimed that:

Brigands in Kingdom Come

But in history they probably would look more european than they do in the game, yes. Their appearance is a bit outdated and old fashioned.

Yes, there would be more cumans with more western armor in reality. But this would make it very difficult for some players to distinguish them from other factions in the game, making the Cumans more unique and recognizable.

Surrrrrre, they never said that…
lol

[Lucem]

Where does he say “our design choices are flawed”? all he said was that they choose a more “cumanish” look and he backed up his argument by stating that using one century old equipment is plausible.

[Plattnerlehrling]

Now I’ve gotta loose a bunch of words as well. I make (western) armour every day. Around a year ago I was bitching about a bunch of details, and some bigger problems, here in the forum. Some I wrote publicly, some privately. However, last week I saw the new trailer Rex, Familia et Ultio. I really like it, despite the fact that there are still numerous flaws, also new ones. But all of them are acceptable in my opinion. The armour looks good, they did mix up a couple of elements where I’d say the time frame is too big, but you need to keep in mind. This game is not the “armour simulator 2018”, this is going to be a big rpg with a lot more than just fighting. I know from personal experience that they do care what the people write here in the forum, so I recommend you to get friendlier again. (The biggest thing I wonder about is whether the riding system will be good or not…) Just pointing out the obvious mistakes and demanding change, insisting that compromises are not acceptable, won’t help anyone. This is a GAME, even I as one of the authenticity priests, understands that some things are just better this way. For example distinguishing the Cumans from the “western” rest, by means of equipment.

Blindly following period paintings of Cumans in churches is also a grave mistake. How does the artist that has never met a Cuman in his life know what they look like? Well maybe someone told him “I’ve heard they were maille shirts”, so he added maille shirts, “oh and pointy hats”… who also wore pointed hats in Europe at this time? Jews! Cumans = no Christians = Jews hat = fitting in the eyes of a western artist. Completely off, but such an influence is clearly visible in some of the paintings. “Hey dawg, is maille their only armour”? - “Well I’ve seen only textile besides maille” - “Hm… weird.” --> Maybe our artist now completely forgot about armour like brigandines, so armour covered with textile. Again he did surely not met them himself, so he listened to, probably, the client.

Lamellar armor is made of plates tied to each other.
Laminar armor is made of stripes tied to each other.

Thank you.

As for the less gold = cheap statement. This, without the decorated plates and a simple steel surface, is a decent helmet for a rider. I can’t see any problem at all.
This sallet here is one of the most elaborate and fancy ones there is. Still, without all the decorations, it becomes a normal, average sallet that could 've been found all across Europe. The only thing missing here are the decorations. Take contemporary armour and remove the decorations, this works most of the time.

[SirWarriant]

Karaszko, 1380

church of Velemér, 1378.

Chronica de Gestis Hungarorum, 1360.

I don’t care wither the difference is a 100 years, 200 years, or even 10 years. History has repeatedly proven that people adapt to changes, even a decade makes a difference in how people dress, especially when they integrate with other cultures.

So what you’re saying is those paintings posted are not a good representation of what the Cumans should look like in 1403, since they’re 30-40 years older than the games time frame.

Also your claim is laughable. A group of people joining into another culture or nation do not just automatically assimilate, and can retain parts (or all) of their cultural identity even after periods of time such as 200 years.

[Lucem]

Blindly following period paintings of Cumans in churches is also a grave mistake. How does the artist that has never met a Cuman in his life know what they look like? Well maybe someone told him “I’ve heard they were maille shirts”, so he added maille shirts, “oh and pointy hats”… who also wore pointed hats in Europe at this time? Jews! Cumans = no Christians = Jews hat = fitting in the eyes of a western artist. Completely off, but such an influence is clearly visible in some of the paintings. “Hey dawg, is maille their only armour”? - “Well I’ve seen only textile besides maille” - “Hm… weird.” --> Maybe our artist now completely forgot about armour like brigandines, so armour covered with textile. Again he did surely not met them himself, so he listened to, probably, the client.

I am not looking at frescos blindly, I’ve analyzed them throughly. Also multiple different cultures such as the russians have depicted the cumans in a very similar fashion to the ones in the frescos, so I wouldn’t say they are inaccurate.

[Lucem]

Karaszko, 1380

church of Velemér, 1378.

Chronica de Gestis Hungarorum, 1360.

I don’t care wither the difference is a 100 years, 200 years, or even 10 years. History has repeatedly proven that people adapt to changes, even a decade makes a difference in how people dress, especially when they integrate with other cultures.

So what you’re saying is those paintings posted are not a good representation of what the Cumans should look like in 1403, since they’re 30-40 years older than the games time frame.

Nice try attempting to twist what i said in the post. I never said they are supposed to look like the ones in the frescos, all I meant was that they would look at least more accurate than the ones in the game.

Also your claim is laughable. A group of people joining into another culture or nation do not just automatically assimilate, and can retain parts (or all) of their cultural identity even after periods of time such as 200 years.

I never denied the fact that people can keep their culture even if they are in a foreign nation. I said people change and will never remain 100% the same for 200 years. Again nice try.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Chainmails.

We have two versions: cheaper one and more expensive one.
But:
1 Fasteners and metal plates on expensive one are taken from late osmanian mails, and should be removed.


2 (Optional) On expensive one add high collar, like on mail 1 on the lower part of this picture:

Also, some more types of chainmailes could be added:
1 Kazakin - mail, sheathed with cloth, looking like a caftan.

2 Baidana (mentioned in Zadoshina) - mail, made of big flat rings.

Close up view:

[SirWarriant]

Nice try attempting to twist what i said in the post.

I literally just took your own words bud, if re quoting you = twisting your words, then you need to be more clear in your posts.

You claim a decade has a huge impact on dress, and then to post paintings depicting 40 year old armor, heavily implying they’re how they should look, and according to your most recent post are more accurate then the armor depicted in game, which is a complete contradiction of your own words.

I never said they are supposed to look like the ones in the frescos, all I meant was that they would look at least more accurate than the ones in the game.

No you never said that.[quote=“Lucem, post:43, topic:33227”]
ust take a look at the various frescos and manuscripts (something you guys probably didn’t do) featuring cumans in the 14th century, a lot of them show very lightly armed horse archers wearing felt hats and mail coifs.

Here are a few examples
[/quote]

This implies that these are the way you think Cumans should look in 1403.

I never denied the fact that people can keep their culture even if they are in a foreign nation. I said people change and will never remain 100% the same for 200 years. Again nice try.

You’re claiming that integration, and assimilating happens very quickly, " a decade can make a huge difference" in your own words, which is nonsense. Cumans using armour from their culture after only living in Hungary for 150 years is not outside the realm of possibility. That’s only a few generations, the idea that they would be completely changed and integrated after that time has no bearing in reality.

[Plattnerlehrling]

That 's good. I’ve got no idea about Cumans so you are the experts. Still things like text sources and extant pieces are often more reliable than paintings.

[Lucem]

No you never said that.[quote=“Lucem, post:43, topic:33227”]
ust take a look at the various frescos and manuscripts (something you guys probably didn’t do) featuring cumans in the 14th century, a lot of them show very lightly armed horse archers wearing felt hats and mail coifs.

Here are a few examples

This implies that these are the way you think Cumans should look in 1403.
[/quote]

Well, then I guess I should have been more clear on what I meant.

I never denied the fact that people can keep their culture even if they are in a foreign nation. I said people change and will never remain 100% the same for 200 years. Again nice try.

You’re claiming that integration, and assimilating happens very quickly, " a decade can make a huge difference" in your own words, which is nonsense.

the pace of assimilation is different for various cultures, history has shown that turkic tribes and nomads tend to assimilate very quickly within the cultures they settle in. For example, the seljuks who adopted persian culture, and mongols who later became the ilkhans and golden horde.

Cumans using armour from their culture after only living in Hungary for 150 years is not outside the realm of possibility.

Of course it isn’t, but using 150 years old equipment and keeping it exactly the same is beyond the realm of possibility.

That’s only a few generations, the idea that they would be completely changed and integrated after that time has no bearing in reality.

I never said they should be completely changed and integrated.