Cumans' armament

[velizariy]

Not certainly in that way. What is logical for Europe can not always be transferred to the East.
The main feature of the cavalry of nomads that most of its riders had no armor at all. The main tactic is mass shooting and rapid movement. And the riders in armor are a layer of pretty rich warriors. They are the ones who can afford to stand out among the rest of the wealth of weapons. And their entourage stood out from the ordinary soldiers simply by the presence of armor.
The complexity of manufacturing helmets of different types (even without gilding and decoration) was very different. It’s silly to think that a simple rider could afford a prestigious helmet without gilding.
There is still a big problem in understanding where armor was made and how much they were available at all. What could they do on the spot, what was bought in other countries. Life is not a game - where with the construction of the forge you can do anything.

PS.
Often the essence of criticism is not in the 100 years of age of the armor. The essence is in bad models - they are often made with huge mistakes and fantasies. You can compare as many as you like simple and expensive helmets - but this does not change the fact that there are bad models of weapons and armor. And there are a lot of them …

[velizariy]

That 's good. I’ve got no idea about Cumans so you are the experts. Still things like text sources and extant pieces are often more reliable than paintings.

Сumans introduction to the game was a big mistake. No one will give you an answer to this question. All we can do is to use the image of the soldiers of the Golden Horde as a reasonable alternative.

[Mundhalai-khan]

There is also a mail-and-plate armor:

Model doesn’t look good. I would recommend to redo it. Likely, there is a good example in Zafar-name:

Some others:

And fragments of bechterez found in Bartymskoe:

As you can see: plates have mail on longer sides, and don’t on end faces. It means, that plates covered each other (higher covers lower on 1/4 of its height) and formed stripes.
So, in Golden Horde mail-and-plate armors would probably look like this:

[Mundhalai-khan]

All we can do is to use the image of the soldiers of the Golden Horde as a reasonable alternative.

That is exactly what we are doing now.

[Lucem]

Now when it comes to shields, I have seen to types in the game.

1. the indo-persian shield
   

Such shields didn’t become a thing until the 16th century. This specific design is from the 18th century

2. Kalkans? or wooden shields with metal struts?
   
   

Whatever the case might be, such kalkans are of ottoman design from the 16th-17th centuries.

[Lieste]

Bridandine was not necessarily cheaper or lower quality than harness. Many knights used both brigandine and harness according to their need. Both brigandine and coat of plates used lung plates by the C15th, similar in form to the central upper part of harness cuirass, and the main difference was the ease of wear - Brigandine cuirass could be taken on and off by the wearer alone, but harness or coat of plates required some assistance, with harness being the most involved to put on.

[Plattnerlehrling]

Brigandines generally are more expensive than cuirasses. The city of Basel ordered 3 brigadines in the 15th century (have to look up the exact date) for their city guard, just to show off. (Yes the source tells us about the intention to showing off) And they are by far not more comfortable than a cuirass, also very heavy. Getting into armour is no problem most of the time. If you have a full cuirass most of the time there is someone who could just close a few buckles for you. If you have munitions grade armour, you can put on lots of stuff on your own.

[velizariy]

Gradation of the price is visible here too. Simple rectangular plates will be more accessible than large profiled plates.

But I will repeat.
What is logical for Europe can not always be transferred to the East.
Therefore, all the reflections on armor in Europe is incorrect in relation to the Kumans.

[Lucem]

@ProkyBrambora @DrFusselpulli

I am curious, what are your references for the Cumans?

[Waldkauz]

I think the problem was in the absence of a normal consultant when the first drawings of models and characters were created. Now to change - too big problems. We can only point out the problem. And hope that the studio will have free time to change something.

I think the problem isn’t only by fixing the grafic model of the armor. It will also impact the infiltration system if cumans are looking more western style.

[Lucem]

I think the problem was in the absence of a normal consultant when the first drawings of models and characters were created. Now to change - too big problems. We can only point out the problem. And hope that the studio will have free time to change something.

I think the problem isn’t only by fixing the grafic model of the armor. It will also impact the infiltration system if cumans are looking more western style.

It wont impact the infiltration system if they gave them period appropriate eastern equipment.

[213]

they did change the wooden shield design(or maybe they just added a bunch of new more accurate designs recently) when people brought up inaccuracies so i think they are open to change provided credible evidence is provided. a lot of this stuff is people stating things authoritatively, can we have some citations? the tabard was 13th century yet it was used well into the 15th century. so the argument that so and so helmet designs would not carry over needs more support.

[velizariy]

It will also impact the infiltration system if cumans are looking more western style.

Our first task is to proofread the models of oriental armor. Make it more historical.
Yes, there is the problem of how much the 15th-century Kumans had Western weapons. But we do not touch it yet. Because the game must have a clearly marked enemy - with foreign weapons.

i think they are open to change provided credible evidence is provided.

What is reliable for you and what is not?
How to determine the accuracy of the models in the game?

[Waldkauz]

It wont impact the infiltration system if they gave them period appropriate eastern equipment.

Of course. But in my opinion if the equipment has to be changed than it should be done as historic accurate as possible. And if Cumans used more western equipment did it change their fighting style?

[Plattnerlehrling]

the Visby finds and the Munich breastplate can’t be compared, they are around 80-100 years apart. During that time a huge change in steel production took place in Europe. The reason why big plates where not as common as they were in later date (regarding the Visby pieces) is simply that the use of water power for tilt hammers still had to spread further and a decent way to forge steel sheet was not available until somewhere in the 14th century. (This is a really complicated topic, if you want to know more contact me personally)

[velizariy]

European armor is not my strong point. For me, this example was a good illustration of the differences within the same type of armor.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Vamraces.

The upper ones are segmented vambraces, found in quite large numbers all over the Eastern Europe:

Kairka vambraces, Crimea.

Shanovaka vambraces, Ukraine.

VIII - IX centuries vambraces from burial grounds of Black Sea North-Eastern coast.
The most widespread structure was two-segmented vambrace, guarding arm from hand to elbow. Gloves usually were not used, because gloves make inconvenient to shoot bow.
So it is recommended to:
1 Remove jut, guarding hand.
2 Remove gloves.

[velizariy]

The Cumans in Medieval Hungary and the Question of Ethnicity

p. 158.

[Mundhalai-khan]

Another question is: Why don’t cumans use greaves?

[Lucem]

@ProkyBrambora @DrFusselpulli

I am curious, what are your references for the Cumans?

@ProkyBrambora @DrFusselpulli

in case you guys missed the question.