@Devs NB: Combo tutorial needs rework ASAP, 1% have done 100 combos


#1

I was looking through the global achievement stats on Steam. I came across some interesting figures.

85% of people have completed the first quest (Blacksmiths son)
40% of people have beaten Runt
12% of people have beaten the main story
1% of people have carried out 100 Combos

When 12% of players beat the game but only 1% have done 100 combos there is something seriously wrong. I absolutely love pulling off combos in combat. I think they are a great addition to the game. i feel they make the combat system and without them the combat system would be… really bad. Every time I do one I feel like a badass. Therefore every time I swing my sword its with the intention of starting a combo. And I often succeed. However I had to look up further information online in order to figure out how to actually do them because at the start I was having great difficulty. But I persevered. And now I can do them and feel badass for it.

I think the combo system will gives the game a lot of replayability. Even now in the late game I look forward to combat, i look forward to choosing what combo to use on which enemy, i look forward to beating enemies. And I honestly think if you are a player who cant combo you are missing out on a huge amount of enjoyment which you could be getting from the combat system. This game has sold probably 1.5 million at this stage? Imagine how many people are missing out on the combo fun? ( a lot of the fun comes from how they hard are to do in the first place).

So the question is why cant players combo?? Two answers I can think of

  1. Archer or stealth build which limits players opportunity to combo as enemies are killed outside of close combat
  2. Players do not understanding the combo system due to poor tutorial

No. 1, the devs cant do anything about, thats down to player agency

No. 2, I hope they can fix the combo tutorial.

Okay, so players do the combo tutorial with Bernard. For successfully completing the tutorial you get the false edge perk/combo. The problem is the tutorial doesn’t force the player to successfully combo to complete the learn combos quest . When I first did the tutorial I made the right swings but the combo didnt come off due to timing, however after a period of time the tutorial ended and I got a message stating quest completed: learn combos. I never saw the animation for a successful combo so off I went not realizing that combos were something else other than a few chained strikes. Furthermore, when it says quest completed, but you didnt successful combo only chained a few strikes together you wont get the perk/combo unlocked. So I thought chained strikes were combos. I wonder how many other players had the same experience??

The game on some level must be able to recognize when the combos have been successfully carried out. Otherwise the combo/perk false edge would not be given to the player for successfully combo-ing. Also if you redo the quest but practice other combos like scarmaker or whatever, when the quest finishes, the game will take the combo/perk false edge away from you. So what the devs should do is keep the player in the combat arena until they have successfully combo-ed 3 times. This seems like the intention of the developers, but for whatever reason it has not been implemented right. I think if it was implemented right players would learn the combos a lot easier, as it is players have to learn them in high pressure combat scenarios. I also think upon successful completion of the tutorial, the Devs should consider a combo practice mode, where the AI only normal blocks, allowing the player to practice their timing. The problem with this is it basically allows the player to practice their attacks without penalty so it would be easy to farm strength from the AI in this mode. This can be done in the combo tutorial as well, but it ends before successful combos and when you restart you have to listen to Bernard explaining combos for like 90 seconds which is a major pain, so most players wouldnt do this. So maybe have Bernard state, “you wont get any better fighting someone who doesnt fight back” and have the player not gain xp from it.

If you cant combo, your probably reading this and thinking god Id love to be able to combo, so her are some tips.

Oswalds Combo tips:

Foreword: to combo enemy must normal block or get stuck by your sword for each of the strikes, not parry or masterstrike

  1. learn the combos
  2. Write them out and put them next to you PC, mines in thick black marker, for easy reference
  3. Raise you stats, especially warfare which increases the speed of your swings
  4. every time you attack an enemy intend to follow that attack with 2/3 more in order to combo, quit random slashing
  5. Only attack following feint/clinch/master strike, this will allow you to get one hit in a least and drastically lowers chances of been parried or master striked
  6. practice practice practice
  7. Find someone other than Bernard to practice on, hes one of the best fighters in game and parries too often for proper practice but still doable. late game there is a way to practice on weaker opponents but no spoilers here.
  8. As soon as you release your first strike move attack direction to the next segment required in combo, when you here the strike and see the targeting reticle flash white release the next swing
  9. practice practice practice
    10.If you get parried back away, start over
  10. have patience
  11. Dont spam attacks
    13 .Try not to feel pressured easier said than done
  12. Develope muscle memory for the combos via practice practice practice
  13. Right combo for the job, combos should be chosen according to enemies Armour levels, no face guard/visor Im gonna Duplieren: Doubling him (this stike hits them in the face and does serious damage, if they have low face armour value), heavy plate all over Im gonna Drei Wunder: Wrist him (gauntlets have low armour defense values this attack strikes the wrist).
  14. Practice practice practice especially the timing of you strikes
  15. If your surrounded by three guys comboing will be very difficult as they will hit you mid combo which will trow your timing off, you will need to separate these guys out , or just single strike until its down to a two vs one.
  16. Get really really frustrated
  17. Practice some more, especially feinting, if you can feint it will stop you only attacking post clinch/master strike which is boring, also if fighting more than one enemy this is the way to go as often the spare enemy will flank and a attack you when you in a clinch
  18. Get the hang of combing and feel like a badass!!

TLDR: Practice enough to G.I.T. G.U.D.


#2

riposte, stamina sparing and chain strike matter; combos don’t. simple as that

even if you miss riposte timing, counter attack and chain strike are enough to ignore combos on the way to killing hundreds if not thousands of enemy NPCs including heavy troops.

to me, combos are style points. the game doesn’t do melee tutorials well so the situational use of combo A vs B vs etc isn’t clear. and quite frankly is of limited practical significance. it’s a shame as so much was invested by WH to motion capture and implment combos


#3

Why combo??

Combos allow you to target enemies weak pionts, therby dealing more damage and ending fights sooner.

For example Duplieren: Doubling will end enemies with low face Armour fast

Drei Wunder: Wrist will end enemiess in full plate by targeting lowly armored wrists.

Yes a big reason to use combos are for style.

However combo-ing is one of most satisfying and rewarding combat experience in any game Ive ever played. Its kinda like figuring out parring in Darksouls, only you have loads of types and you have to choose which one is best for which situation.

I can not recommend highly enough that everyone starts playing around with combos. They are so rewarding to master. Just run into a fight Duplieren: Doubling someone and feel like a badass plus that guy is probably dead or on his last legs. They are honestly so much fun.


#4

I think that at least out of hardcore mode problem of combos could be solved with controllable “slow-time”. I know, I know - casual as a f***, but, in case of slowdown for a couple of seconds, you have better chances to perform correct combination.

What you waste - more stamina an such “conbat trance”, maybe also time to get this perk.


#5

Combos with mouse and keyborad are a pain. A reason why i never learning many combos in the game.
For what?!^^


#6

why use doubling when one can jab with Stinger (and kill one of the game bosses – Runt – with one head strike in HC)?

i get the reward of seeing the combos work. practice makes perfect. martial arts are no different. the combos should be demoed to the player, the player should have to execute 5 successfully against the combat master (Bernard, Vanyek, Robard, Pribyslavitz veteran), and then the perk should activate. the passive skill development (eg simply selecting a new combo and viola you have it) is design porn, plain and simple. this passive skill tree for combos is what i fundamentally dislike about melee skill development in KCD, and I find it to be anathema to bow skill development (which has no perks). there should be inefficiencies in form (eg akin to wobble in archery) until experience gained

another issue is the melee magnestism effect. rather than letting you get out of position or make bad position attacks, the game pushes and pulls… way too much


#7

I actually found using the no more slow motion mod is helpful for practicing combos, the slow mo effect from master strikes bresks the flow of combat in my opinion. I think you should practice just moving the cursor through the stages of the combos without attacking.

Ive inverted my mouse, I was finding it hard to do down L & R, much easier if you invert your mouse, but this takes getting used to, especially cause in M&B:Warband I dont have the mouse inverted. Mayne try inverting your mouse.

I didnt know you could do that. that is an excellent piont. Does runt not have a visor-ed helm though? Id be going for Drei Wunder: Wrist myself.

I agree. having to go to a master swordsman and spending the perk point with him, for him to teach you the combo would make a lot more sense. Like how does Henry figure the combos out??

Your not the only one to state this, a lot of people are frustrated by this, but Id say a lot of people arent frustrated, they just dont comment on it because its not an issue for them. For example I personally dont feel this is a problem, Its just henry trying to keep himself square with whomever hes targeted. Makes sense to me, of course if there are multiple enemies that means Im spinning the mouse wheel to keep targeting everyone.


#8

I have lv18 in Sword, with all combos for longsword unlocked (my main). The thing is, I could be 3 moves into a 4 move combo when time slows down and I loose my progress so have to start again. This infuriates me, and has happened so many times that I now give up on anything passed 3 moves. If time didn’t slow down then I would have no issues at all. This time slowing ruins combos for me.


#9

yeah, stabbed Runt right through the visor. couldn’t believe it because it was over in less than 5 secs. Runt charged. i moved around until Runt was on the right level (floor is uneven). jab. dead.

if WH ever implements large battles, the magnestism has to go or the battles are going to look silly. nobody will hold the line.

another problem is that initiative is negated by the magnetism (combat pairing) mechanic. sucks when you gain initiative (charge and outflank enemy) and then can’t deliver a coup de grace because the magnetism effect hasn’t been established yet.


#10

Time slowing is indicative of you getting parried or master striked. The AI should in theory get it hard to parry or master strike combos because each subsequent attack comes from different directions, having higher warfare increases attack speed giving the AI less time to react. If teh AI has high defense they also have a better chance to react. Furthermore the AI has a bettter chance of parrying/master striking if your attack comes through where their sword is positioned so sometimes they will parry a combo because their sword just happens to be in the right place. This is also why you can get parried more on longer combos cause there’s more strikes and more chances the AIs sword will be in the right place. If you start a combo with a feint/clinch/master strike most of the time with good stats you should succeed. Unless your fighting someone with high defense stats. But late game you should be able to combo everyone.

Oh now I get what your saying. Yea in large battles its an absolute pain. I think thats because they arent locked onto you so when they attack an ally you get pulled after them. Super annoying indeed. However without allies I dont have an issue.


#11

So before boosts, my base stats are:

Main Level - 19,
Strength - 20,
Agility - 14,
Vitality - 20,
Defence - 13,
Warfare - 17.

Time slows almost every time I swing my sword, and almost every time they swing for me. It’s really frustrating, I just wish there was an option to turn this off.


#12

I found the slow motion annoying too. I installed the no more slow motion mod. Im enjoying the combat more with it. https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/284 is the link to the relevant nexus page. It is save game compatible.

Time is slowing down when you swing cause they are parrying (perfect blocking) or master striking you. Try striking only after feinting/clinching/master striking. Should eliminate most of it but it still will happen depending on enemies defense stats.

Time is slowing down cause you are good at perfect blocking/master striking. So fair play :+1:

My stats are similar to yours and Im having no issue in combo-ing. So its not your stats which are limiting your ability to combo.


#13

I just wanted to give my juice to the topic^^
The controls arent the real problem, the focus and the linear direction to get a new strike for the combo is very imprecisely. But i dont care. No combo learning, no problems. Idk why certain people say that you will get problems to win a fight if you do not learn new styles.


#14

Will flip this around. Do the NPCs use these combos on you (eg doubling more frequently if you aren’t wearing bascinet or wrist more frequently if you’re wearing heavy armor)? How about paired enemies (bandit vs Cuman vs trader/guard battle spawn points)? Might happen but can’t say that I’ve seen it with noticeable regularity and I’ve played over 1000h

Just like a old fashioned video game (street fighter), the more you see your enemy use a move with success, the more likely you’ll emulate it in the future


#15

Have you tried turning down the DPI on your mouse? I have heard others have found this helpful. i have two buttons built in my mouse for this purpose.
I have over 1000 hours in mount and blade warband (over the last like 5 years or whatever) which uses just four directions to choose combat from. This system uses 5 directions plus two directions for alternate attack which is stab. Thats 3 more ways to attack than warband. Which I love. But honestly all that practice in warband at directional swings has probably made it a lot easier for me than non warband players to get used to this system.

Yes they use them all the time. Im not sure if they choose what combo to use or if its random or based on skill level, but I have got comboed many times. I wouldnt like the AI to choose a combo which would be most damaging to the player cause that would mean every AI will be trying the same combo in every fight. Once you get to a certain point in the game you just wear the best stuff and never take it off.

I mostly get combed in group fights when I get flanked, and they can swing away before I have a chance to respond, or if Im stuck in a clinch etc. One on One I usually back away if an enemy is attacking me preventing them having the range to strike and this prevents me getting comboed, alternatively master stirke or parry will prevent combo as well. The Ai defintly combos though. This is very easily tested. Just challenge Bernard and he will combo you right quick.

With your 100o hrs you might just be too good at avoiding dmg to get comboed. :joy:

I dont know if they do it to each other. in these situations Im too busy focusing on my own combat to take hee of AI vs AI fights. Good query though. As they defiantly do it to the player


#16

i know the NPCs chain strikes (combos) what i don’t know is the extent to which it’s a tactic based on nature of enemy (armor, etc) versus capitalizing on opportunity (you’ve drained stam and have left yourself vulnerable). my impression of NPC combos is that they are opportunity strikes. not attack (tactical) bias.

what you’ve described is opportunity strikes.

i do a ton of horse archer. so that’s one factor. that said, i’ll ride and jump off to even the numbers [shooting arrows among magnetized NPCs when I’m trying to save one of them (guards/traders) isn’t effective]

the other things are i guard stam like a virgin guards his/her chastity and i try to avoid flanking at all costs

again, the parenthetical part is the focus, not just combos. accordingly, i wear the bell shaped kettle hat and don’t disproportionately suffer doubling as i should

long story short. situational combat should reflect opportunity and vulnerabilities. KCD does a fairly decent job of opportunity. the other is in doubt (the high axe might work for armored troops but is flat stupid for plain clothes bandits)


#17

I wear the same helmet and have the same experience as yourself. The question is would you want them to take advantage of where your Armour is weakest with their combos. Because if they did all of them would be trying to use doubling on you. On the one hand itd be more realistic. On the other hand, itd make the AI more predictable. its a real trade off.

I do think the AI attacks normally with the intention of pulling off a combo though.

There is a difference between chain strikes and combos. Chain strikes is what you learn in the sheep fold in Skalitz ie. to follow up one strike with another. Combos on the other hand is a special attack which targets a specific area, triggered by a specific chain of strikes. Which you learn from Cpt. Bernard outside Rattay. One leads onto the other but randomly chain striking is very unlikely to result in a combo. Combos have all the benefits of chain striking with the potential to strike a weak area on your opponent. This is why in my tips section I advocated that people stop randomly striking and only strike with the intent to carry out a combo.

There is no reason to chain strike over combo. Even if your won a clinch and just wanted to hit the guy over the head as he has low head armour, you might as well follow your over head slash with a R SLASH and DOWN L SLASH for the false edge which is more likly to deal more damage than a random chain, as the last strike will hit the head again, and the second strike is quicker than a repeated overhead slash so that may connect.


#18

i expect them to be biased not in a categorical way but in a probabilistic way. example, if wearing open face, then probability of enemy utilizing doubling against you is 2x (or more; in relative sense) or 60% of time (percentage high enough to be perceptible; in absolute sense).

i take it this way. i expect the NPCs to do what it takes to survive. that includes tactical flexibility/adaptability. if WH strives for realism in combat, this should be present. doesn’t matter against me, a trader, a wily guard, a riffraff bandit, a battle tested Cuman or a professional merc (bandit)

a combo is an execution of more than one strikes in a particular order/manner within a limited time period. sensu generis, this is a chain strike (even if not in purview of chain strike perk).


#19

Yeah i have a button with 4 level DPI tuning on my mouse but this will not help to solve that.
Not for me, i guess^^ I guess for me it easier in real life to made a combo as in the game. I am not able to explain what i mean. Short the star and focus is trash for me^^
To get into this combat mode we can add a button (switches the mode) and not a focus based whatever feature. It is crap! The only game which i like with a focus in combat is Tekken 3!^^


#20

What I really dislike in all the combos mechanic is the fact that you “learn” them as perks just by taking. It is pretty weird gamedesign decision, honestly. Combos could be separate perks, obtained through training with various specialists around Bohemia, while perks in swordsplay tree should have been something else - like, faster attacks, better use of stamina, movement in a battle and such. Well, you get the idea. I understand, what exactly devs wanted to do with how they did - it was about realism and real historical fighting. But… it still was pretty weird.

Another qustionable decision is the fact that you have to learn all that combos and place correct order in your head. I sort of missed the era of console fightings, with two gamepads and TV (specifics of growing up in Russia of 90-s), just as never appreciated the genre in general when our family finally got a PC - have always preferred either shooters, or strategies in my childhood. So I sort of missed the opportunity to get used to need of memorizing tens of combinations to perform “something cool”.

Sure, in CKD you just have to land 3-4 certain strikes, and general number of combos is not so big, but still… Not the best mechanic, honestly.