Helmets in game


#1

I have a bug issue with helmets in game an their visors.

I don’t want to go into a long rant about it, so I’ll just say that it is historically inaccurate and silly.

Let’s look at a houndskull helmet or an early armet. These helmets are lovely, no complaints. However WarHorse have mistaken the function of a visor. A visor is designed and used to glance incoming projectiles away from the face and deflect the kinetic energy that the projectile has. So that means to deflect and protect the face, okay great. However, WarHorse then translates this into “during melee”. This is where there is a problem.

Visors were used when advancing to the enemy block (opponent) and lifted when they engage in melee. You may think this odd, but it was a common occurrence (especially in English armies which are obviiiiiously the best :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: ) This is because there is little to no reason for a visor to be used in melee. Yes, it does protect the face from projectiles still, but the chance is slim and it is much more of a hindrance than a benefit so it wasn’t done. Yes it would protect the wearer against a stab or precise smash to the face, but realistically this sort of tactic wasn’t often used in actual combat and the benefit of being able to have a very open and clear view was much better and more life saving as it was harder to sneak attack into a person. (I know we have the lovely old fencing manuscript but this was not designed for mass combat, only tournament dueling and there were many other styles of combat.) A good way to shoe this is by seeing how popular open faced helmets were during the medieval era as they knew up close, they aren’t going to have an arrow to the face. Even this is reflected in game. Look at most characters.

Now, even a visor up does actually protect the user from harm as it creates a ridge for the incoming attack to land on first instead of making contact with the face, so it still had a use up.

Lastly, there is an important armour piece WarHorse has not introduced for those snowflakes that are too worried about being hit in the face: the bevor. These were so often used and so commonly used from militia to knights and kings that anyone should know these. They protect the lower face and are attached to the neck, these were very common for the majority of knights as it protected the neck much better than a gorget.

So therefore, I suggest that warhorse gives us control of the visor. We decide when to have it up and down. Just like drawing a sword and putting the sword away.
OR put our visor down automatically like usual, but when we engage in melee, bring it back up again.

Now, this post is not to say people never fought with visors down, because some people did. However, not many people actually did and it was more common and more practical to have the visor raised.

So please can you work on this??? If not for patch 2.0 or whatever but for the next installment!!

Any errors or spelling mistake, just get over it; I’m on my phone and I’m tired!


#2

just wish you could pick whatever you want: open or close. ditch the auto open/close


#3

Well written piece.
I don’t know the historical aspects like you but I couldn’t agree more.
We should have the option of controlling the visor.
I hate the restricted view, when in battle, so much, I don’t wear a bassinet.
To be honest, I don’t even like the look.
My Henry looks more like a robot instead of a person.
I have come to the conclusion though that proper head gear is essential.
After reading another piece about someone arguing that helmets were totally unnecessary, I took that too much to heart went for the super open captain Bernard look and soon regretted it.
I still dress Henry with an open helmet but use a full woolen coif and a full metal coif underneath the helmet.


#4

plenty of evidence of visors being used “down” during combat.
on some helmets you can even lock it in place, so it don’t open by mistake.
So your claim that they where not used down is simply not correct.
It was clearly a matter of situation and personal taste.

Also in real life it is simply not that big an issue when wearing full plate armour. It dont matter if the opponent wack you on the leg with his sword.
And if you for a moment during a fight, is not directly involved in combat, you can simply lift it, look around and drop it again.

But I fully agree that we should have the option of having it down or not.


#5

Last night, I pounded some NPCs and wrecked their helmets and the rest of their armor. Upcoming hardcore DLC got me thinking about how much did armor deformation (damage) come into play and hinder combatant visibility and movement. Thoughts?


#6

You didn’t read it all then. I did acknowledge people fought with visors down. Just the majority of original manuscripts I have viewed mention not using a visor in close quarters. These opinions could be ethnocentric to England as that’s where the sources are from, but I doubt it would be due to the practicality of it.

And yes, I have a visor lock on my armet too, but that’s just to stop the visor from moving when I’m mounted or running. Don’t use it to lock the visor in when in combat. As I like the sight (saying that the visor isn’t heavily limiting compared to some others but still.)

Glad you agree with the rest though!
Tbh, I’d say a bevor is more vital than a visor. Like, if you had to choose one or the other. I think everyone would say a bevor. Shame we don’t have them in game.

Edit:

Also the paradigm you describe about popping the visor up to see is mostly invalid in a realistic battle as you would be fighting as a unit in a block. There was not great maneuverability at all, just like any other infantry block. So when you have the opportunity to lift it up would be during a rest period when you are being serviced by water bearers and such, which it is then not valid.

I don’t think this game would be much fun if we were forced to fight as a unit though, keeping perfectly in line, attacking set targets to your diagonals, not being able to move or retreat. Might as well be a cut scene lol!


#7

Was i the only person who thought this thread was rude? :joy::sunglasses:


#8

Lastly, there is an important armour piece WarHorse has not introduced for those snowflakes that are too worried about being hit in the face: the bevor.

I’d say a bevor is more vital than a visor. Like, if you had to choose one or the other. I think everyone would say a bevor. Shame we don’t have them in game.

That’s because bevors were made to compliment the sallet, the first of which was recorded as being made in 1407, four years after this game. They aren’t in the game because they don’t exist yet. I mean I’m all for sallets (my faourite helmet) and bevors, but this game aims for historical accuracy in arms and armour, so to see a bevor in 1403 without a sallet? It’d be like seeing an armet (the first recorded in 1420 from Milan) on the field.


#9

No crossbows. No squad fighting. No mounted Cuman. When does aim matter, and when doesn’t it?

Some pretty fundamental aspects of historical accuracy have already been violated so just don’t get sweating the provenance of bevor/sallets


#10

Bevors were about before 15th. Just not the usual associated styles that we think of. They were much lower, but still high enough to be called a bevor and not gorget


#11

No crossbows.

That was an animation and balance of the weapon problem that had to be pulled due to the closing deadline. They should be showing up sometime soon, and possibly handgonnes since they too existed at the time.

No squad fighting. No mounted Cuman.

Good points, of which neither I have an answer for.


#12

Technically they did have mounted Cumans… At the beginning. Just afterwards the Cumans we find are all in camp and not really raving for some good old looting and pillaging mode. Some camps have horseys, some don’t.

The mounted combat system is very shaky at the moment so I doubt they will put us up against mounted units until the next game to fine tune it so it isn’t so clunky. Still better than Skyrim’s horse combat tho!!! xD


#13

I believe tech issues underlie all the things I mentioned. Not delivering on those to me is more of a lapse in accuracy and realism than some facets of armor.

Yes, Cuman were on horseback up to the escape. Then, gone. It’s as if the Spartans made it to battle and then decided give up using the phalanx

Beyond that, if we want to evaluate gear used in the game, were the Cuman known to wear the finest chest armor from Milan and Aachen?


#14

I can give you more than a dozen sources of bevors in the 14th century. Paintings, pictures and effigies/reliefs.
To name a few I could find rather quickly in my notes:
Effigy of Ramon Folch X de Cardona, royal monastery of Poblet, 1325, showing a bevor that reaches up to the mouth.
Effigy of Don Alvaro de Cabrera, Gothic Chapel at The Cloisters, dated 1300-1314 (Cabrera died in 1299, guy that built the effigy in 1314),
Brass of Sir Hugh Hastings, at Elsyng in Norfolk, 1347
Effigy of Thibaud de Pomollain in the church at Coulommiers, about 1330, bevor was made of two parts, a full plate protecting the face and neck, lower part on the shoulders made out of riveted plates.
Relief from the Puerta Preciosa of the Pamplona cathedral, about 1325, showing a soldier wearing a high bevor in combination with a kettle hat.
Altar frontal, school of Navarre, early XIV century, Museo de Bellas Artes de Catalunia, Barcelona. Showing a soldier with high bevor in combination with a kettle hat.
Manuscript “De officiis regum” by Walter de Milemete, 1326 or 1327, in the library of Christ Church, Oxford, showing a crossbowman with a high bevor, curved forward, almost like a beak, in combination with a kettle hat.
Central portico of the cathedral of Santo Mario de Suso, early 14th century, showing a soldier with a high bevor in combination with a mail coif.
Relief on the tomb of Aymer de Valence, Earl of Pembroke (died 1323), in Westminster Abbey, showing a bevor in combination with a skullcap.

Most of these sources show bevors that reach up to at least the mouth, often to the tip of the nose. The majority of them are worn in a combination with a kettle hat, the rest with either just a mail coif or mail coif and a skull cap. For the effigy of Don Alvaro de Cabrera (just a mail coif with the bevor) it is for example assumed that it was worn with a kettle hat, as it was quite popular in spain, even for nobles.
As you can see from these sources (reliefs, effigies, brasses, murals, Manuscripts), the bevor was already popular before 1403, especially in combination with a kettle hat. :wink:


#15
  • Drops the mic *

#16

If you are willign to ignor the fact that the closest example was about 1 000 km from Bohemia if I’m not mistaken. :- )


#17

It doesn’t matter? Bohemia isn’t an isolated kingdom. They have good connections all around, they even have the new and popular 14th century Milanese styles of armour so don’t complain his sources are too far away…

As to the comment above, it’s actually just reminded me of another source to look at that I can’t remember the damn name of!! It was compiled in the 13th century and very detailed in the depiction of medieval life and combat in France.


#18

As as game is concerned it doesn’t. As you pointed out, there is even a Milanese armour.

Just that in reality I really doubt there was something similar in Bohemia, at lest in noticeable numbers. And especially in Rataje.


#19

I REMEMBER NOW!

The Maciejowski Bible!!!
Produced around 1250, so it’s quite early for this game, but in a very well illustrated scene, it shows a kettle helmet and bevor I think. The bevor wasn’t a common piece during this time, but it was used. Mainly people who could afford proper neck protection would be in favour of a transition great helm or a full great helm instead of a bevor and those too poor to afford such a helmet wouldn’t have enough money for a bevor. So it’s a weird thing of having the means and knowhow to do it and they were made, but those who could afford it didn’t want it and those who wanted it couldn’t afford it.

I will add that when wearing a great helm styled helmet, they often wore a leather neck bevor, the height of the leather would vary, but commonly it would be up to your jaw line or just above, so it classifies as a bevor and not a gorget (they used leather as it was flexible and would not hinder the movement of the helmet, so the front plate could squash / move the leather at the neck. A metal version would not yield and it would’ve been incompatible.)


#20

Nah, it saved people’s lives. It would be here.
The even have jack chains which were invented in western Europe. But these beauties literally saved lives and arms. It’s the same for a bevor. If you have any sort of chest protection, you can BET that it’ll deflect any top half blows to you neck. You needed that neck protection to not die. Neck protection is a big thing and has always been a big thing. Look at my post above about the bible and look at some pictures. You’ll see the common soldiers wearing a gambeson with a big ass thick as hell.padding around their neck (so uncomfy to wear btw)