Oh, this might not be the best thread for example. You do get it all over the place though, looking around.
But I’m taking this off-topic. 
True.
I’d not care about the emotions behind it lol.
My hypothetical reply to that hypothetical stament would be…
“You’re just jelouse because you can’t carry a Mohawk off.”
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To be frank, homosexuality may have been lauded and supported before Christianity in most forward ancient cultures (bar Judaism, of course), but once Christianity did come along, and then rose in popularity and power, it was the case that you would have to hide your true self from society, and perhaps marry to blend in, or remain a lifelong bachelor.
If you weren’t careful, or you were somehow outed (after one of your few or many daring love trysts, due to the covert nature of your sexuality at this time), you could almost certainly expect persecution from the more pious of your peers, and from the common rumour-mongers and the local church community, let alone legal retribution from the courts of the period.
These were scary, dangerous times to be a homosexual. Because it was seen as morally wrong. I don’t imagine many homosexuals would be well known among their locals, let alone their own families. Perhaps we might see a single case of medieval opinions and persecutions of homosexual(s) as a quest-line. Perhaps it could even be a quest to disparage rumours about a certain person, in return for a good sum of money. I don’t know. I think that could be a fun quest.
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Alot of the Arguments on here against Homosexuality remind me of the complete nonsense I saw in ARMA3 when Female soldiers were discussed.
As someone who has served in the military for over a decade in various conflict zones, with Women, men, transgender (yes there are transgender people in the UK Military), black, white, other, hetero, homo, Bi, Muslim, Christian, atheist etc. You know what? It didn’t make a damn difference. Professionalism was all that counted, the ability to depend on the people around regardless of race, colour, creed, sex or sexual orientation. You wouldn’t refuse to treat a comrade who had been shot because he is gay, or black or any other reason.
The game is about realism, Homosexuality is part of the human condition, include it, it makes for interesting plot diversity because much of this would kept under wraps by the nobility, clergy or whatever.
So if people want to re-engineer the Real World, to fit their own “Head in the Sand” approach to life and remove things they don’t agree with despite not having any knowledge or experience of any of these issues. Well frankly, I’d sooner those people took their intolerant rantings elsewhere, preaching utter bollocks and pseudo-facts.
SPOILER ALERT - Realism Game - Features Realism…WARNING Immature people may be prone to ineffectual, indignant, irrational rage that Life isn’t as they want it to be
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This. Why do realism, if it isn’t a realistic approach to every RL issue concerning this period. It would just be Skyrim or whatever set in Bavaria.
Bavarim.
@MWNCIBOO
Maybe thats something unique in the UK. But there are still alot of gender issues in our military. And honestly I doubt there are none in the UK military. Afaik there is something called combat effectiveness and in alot of cases that is an excuse or whatever you wanna call it, not to accept women in a certain regiment. And I have my doubts that the US military is as open about homosexuals as u describe the UK military to be. (I have my doubts there as well, but I’m not from the UK so i have no proof.)
In my line of work you won’t get a job if you have a visual piercing as a man or a tattoo. There are no gender issues ofc. because you could sue. But unfortunately you just didn’t qualify because the male applicant was just a tiny bit better in the job interview (as always). That’s because they can’t tell you they didn’t take you because you are a women, gay, pierced or whatsoever. Don’t flatter yourself there are gender issues everywhere.
Maybe you are one of the supporters there should be females displayed in the DDAY-Landing in the Tom Hanks movie. Equal rights and such.
I don’t approve of the handling of the issue, but thats what it is.
And to display a free homosexuality in a medieval game is not what you call realism. As a matter of fact you’d ignore a lot of facts just to please a certain community. It’s easier to just let it go and to ignore the issue. And dont tell me about realism. Because you can’t implement all things just to make a game more realistic. Otherwise you’d have to implement things like rape, cancer, disease, illness, bestiality, going to the toilet, pooping in public places, having sex, mawing the garden, scrubbing the windows, jerking off, harassment of jews and other minorities, all kinds of sexual fetishes, ripping cloth, torture, ripping off limbs, cutting off fingers, cannibalism, and many more stuff i don’t even wanna mention.
I hope the developers are not implementing homosexuality, coz in my opinion that would be a waste of ressources for little or less gain.
How is it’s bollocks or a pseudo fact, to point out that being gay or lesibian was not accepted in the Medieval community, that it was punishable by death if discovered and was kept very much behind closed doors?! That’s not being homophobic it’s just pointing out the facts as they where as sad as those facts are. There is enough historical eveidance out there that proovs this.
No one’s decrying peoples nature, at least not myself. How can one have homosexuality in a game and make it playable in this whilst keeping it authentic to the social, political and religiouse views of the time period!?
Would there have been gays and lesbian in Medieval Europe and Enland, ys would have have been open about it no, becaiuse at the very least they would have ostracsised by the community sad but TRUE…not bollocks or a pseudo fact.
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As playable as it is in real life. There are many homosexuals (myself included) that can’t look “openly” for love (unless you include online) without the risk of physical harm/death due to my location within the US. That being said though there are few places I’d rather live than where I am. Also even though homosexuality is very taboo here (thanks to the internet) there are actually MANY homosexuals living in my area. Homosexuals were still real then persecution aside; and like all of us here who want it to be included it’s not to show some sort of biased free love and rainbow pride parades. We want it to be depicted historically accurately, which is not the way it seems many heterosexuals are fantasizing it to be.
Sorry hun I still wholy disagree, you can’t use a modern mind/reasoning to look or try to understand a Medieval one, people viewed the world wholy differently, it’s was litrally alien when compaired to ours.
Belive it or not it was far worse to gay in Medieval Europ, even the slightest rhumour could get you killed. I am not saying that people don’t suffer today or that there are not modern people with a, frankly Medieval, narrow mindset…but in comparison modern society as a whole is far more accepting than it was in the time period we are talking about.
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Though you yourself are speaking from a perspective of a modern day person. We can only speculate at how things were then. If it was truly alien (and yes the situation is different between people where I am and medieval times no question) that would mean it’s a concept that people of our era can’t wrap our minds around in which case we might as well be making a fantasy game.
No I am not at all, I am basing my points on Historical texts/history books about this time period. I am not speculating nor are the historians who wrote the books, please stop trying to twist things in a false manner as there is nothing that irrriates me more
To try and say I use ‘speculation’ as an argument, when I have clear not done so, is a strawman argument in itself.
There are enough facts out there that clearly state societys view on sexuality, how can I be using a modern mind/speculating when I directly drawing from them!?
When I talked about mind sets, it was to point out how many modern people cleary can’t undersatnd, as in your case, why sexuality was not more open, you keep on recyling the same flawed argument of ‘but it could have been how do we know!’ we knwo it was not like this because we have written records of what happened topeople who where caught.
Just as many modern people can understand or why women where viewed as natural liars of lesser than men and why many wone of te day accepted that view.
That is what I mean by alien.
I unserstand more how things where because I read enough history books, watch enough history programs and re-enact/relive this period enough to know something about how it works. So please don’t presume what I do and do not know to say I am merely looking at it with a modern mind set.
Equaly the developers have done their reaserch to know whats was what.
You are using your modern mind/ how you personaly view the world to try and change or twist Medieval historical facts so that it fits what you personaly want the game to be like. The shere amount of time you have posted up about this subject seems to make that apparent to me.
As I said all my points have come from factual sources not what I personaly want to see, if homosexuality was open in this time period then I would have no qualms about it at all. You can try and twist my words/point if you wish but it makes your argument a lesser one.
As I have said on your other psost I have no issues with sexuality in games, when they are modern, futeristic or fantasy, but in a realistic historical game I am sorry but the devs have to go with how religion, sexual acceptance and life was at the time other wise was you yourself said they might as well be making a fantasy game.
If the game was based in Medieval Turky or Grease that would be another matter and your points/ wishs to include homosexuality, even openly so, in gameplay whold be utterly valid and more than likly it would be part of game play. It’s just not so much in Europ/England.
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Your claims suggest you believe the other posters here, myself included, are less knowledgeable than yourself. That’s an arrogant statement alone. More arrogantly you claim I make a point that I’ve never made “you keep on recyling the same flawed argument of ‘but it could have been how do we know!’” You are claiming you understand the mind of a medieval person, though even an historian wouldn’t claim to understand their mindset completely. Humans of any era can ONLY speculate upon the mindset of other eras. We can more accurately speculate based on knowledge left behind. That’s why “history is written by the victors” is a darn accurate statement though it can also be said “history is written by those in power”
So further more you say all of your claims are factual though I haven’t seen you comment in this thread prior to today if you make a claim and want to state it’s factual then you site your sources and even then it’s not “factual” it’s based on the claims on another person. Throughout this thread (which you appear to ignore) no one wants anything other than what is as factual as we can gather about this time period. You say you trust the developers as do the majority of us. So trust them to get it right. Also try to become more humble. Start by reading the 200+ post before yours and actually try to understand a persons points before claiming you know them instinctively (I say instinctively because I have no idea how you would think I always make the claim which you assert I make)
@Madaras and @evil_blond_goth : If you want to settle something personal, there’s a feature called “private messages”. Use it wisely. You can unload your opinions about one another there. Thank you!
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To befair my forst message was nothing to do wit what I thought about Mardras personaly
You can view my post as you wish it, does not mean your statments/views in regards to my meaning and intent are either apt or correct.
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Kind-of agree. I don’t think it’s ‘out to get people’ or ‘propaganda’, but it is rather annoying how art can no longer be made without someone shouting “What about women?!” or “What about the gays?!” or “What about the tranny-bi-pan-fur-asexual-homogeneous-trisexuals?!”
That being said, this topic does seem to be brought up in an OK light, but I feel like there’s no real reason to have a ‘gay’ quest, unless the devs decide to put it in as some kind of side mission or hidden AI behavior. Even at that, it doesn’t feel appropriate. It’s just not important…
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100% agree. IMHO, your last sentece had totally summarised the point of this whole thread. It is absolutely irrelevant to discuss this topic. I believe (hope) the creators of the game have the same opinion.
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Incredible thread.
Some people saying sexuality is irrelevant in games, ignorant of characters like Nathan Drake or John Marston who’s sexuality is absolutely in the story, and ignorant of RPGs, which give sexuality a presence even more along with choices. If Uncharted isn’t about heterosexuality, then a gay lead or supporting character counterpart doesn’t make any other game about homosexuality.
Some people saying that it shouldn’t be there because it is just added for the sake of having it, ignorant of the context of the thread, which is clearly discussing ways that the setting and story of the game can be enriched with facets of actual period encounters. Sexuality is threaded into the plots of the majority of major literature and media. Maybe they just don’t notice when it is heterosexuality. Any romantic plotting or character interaction IS a revelation of sexuality. Not to mention, many people, including those on development teams, happen to know gay people or are gay, making it incredibly plausible for them to think to include it in their creative space.
Saying it doesn’t need to be mentioned anymore because gays are already accepted is so ignorant and false. Maybe the people here don’t know about the social and political climates of the world, but gay people do not share the same level of rights in most of the USA and the world, and it is ostracized heavily by many countries, many of which still make it a criminally punishable offense. Only recently did polls in the US indicate a majority of the public support equal rights for gay people, and the laws have yet to change in most places. Nobody except those who had problems with black people told them to stop speaking out during the Civil Rights Movement, and that’s very much how rights movements successfully occur. The minority speaks until they don’t need to, and social change shifts along the way.
How do you get laws and minds to change? You have to ask. How do you ask in politics? If you know anything about civil and social movements that have had any success, you know that the group must campaign and speak loudly until they have been accounted for everywhere and are no longer written out of specific rights or written into special criminal laws.
Saying it is propaganda to have it is ridiculous and unsupportable. Gay people exist in real life, in the lives of many players, and in the environments of many development studios. They are not all straight white people and shouldn’t be shamed for including other types of people in their stories, no matter how much of a minority those other types are.
Folks, gay people exist and always have. If people at Warhorse and players of their games want to see gays portrayed in their games, they can. And that has nothing to do with propaganda.
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I’m glad you posted and I believe you make very excellent points. Though I’m gay I don’t feel like the laws are against me in the USA. However you’re certainly right people do ostracize us because it’s not the norm for them. However the difference between most people when it comes down to sexuality and race is in sexuality you have a choice and in race you don’t. Even if people intellectually know that to not be true people still believe it to be true and will create prejudices based on that which compliment their life norms. As I’ve mentioned before that where I live I can’t really come out or flirt with guys (and be simply “rejected” if they’re straight). People are readily offended if a guy even makes a friendly gesture towards them that are might be perceived as gay. But I’ve gone on longer than I intended. My point being is there is a much larger social problem for homosexuals than there are legal problems. Also that I think you wrote beautifully on the subject and I greatly appreciate it.
I like good quests!
They could involve the topic of homosexuality or you know any of the other limitless possibilities. No specific event is very likely to happen. Sons of blacksmiths who’s family was murdered are just as much of an abnormal minority. If warhorse comes up with a quest that happens to involve homosexuality let them, something has to happen and unless the player is going to do fieldwork all day it’s going to be out of the ordinary. But doesn’t need to have a notable effect on how good a quest is.
Legal punishment for a crime doesn’t necessarily mean it was practiced in the same fashion. I very much doubt all the nobility went through the trouble of persecuting all there subjects who allegedly practiced sodomy.
Does Homosexuality exist as it’s own thing or would medieval people just consider it a form of sodomy? In any case they wouldn’t think in the same Categories as we do. So portraying them doesn’t have to be like homophobia.
As a left handed person I approve but as a gamer I don’t think it adds enough to the game to be worth the effort.
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