Homosexuality In The Game/Time Period

Off-topic
#251

How is it’s bollocks or a pseudo fact, to point out that being gay or lesibian was not accepted in the Medieval community, that it was punishable by death if discovered and was kept very much behind closed doors?! That’s not being homophobic it’s just pointing out the facts as they where as sad as those facts are. There is enough historical eveidance out there that proovs this.

No one’s decrying peoples nature, at least not myself. How can one have homosexuality in a game and make it playable in this whilst keeping it authentic to the social, political and religiouse views of the time period!?

Would there have been gays and lesbian in Medieval Europe and Enland, ys would have have been open about it no, becaiuse at the very least they would have ostracsised by the community sad but TRUE…not bollocks or a pseudo fact.

1 Like
#252

As playable as it is in real life. There are many homosexuals (myself included) that can’t look “openly” for love (unless you include online) without the risk of physical harm/death due to my location within the US. That being said though there are few places I’d rather live than where I am. Also even though homosexuality is very taboo here (thanks to the internet) there are actually MANY homosexuals living in my area. Homosexuals were still real then persecution aside; and like all of us here who want it to be included it’s not to show some sort of biased free love and rainbow pride parades. We want it to be depicted historically accurately, which is not the way it seems many heterosexuals are fantasizing it to be.

#253

Sorry hun I still wholy disagree, you can’t use a modern mind/reasoning to look or try to understand a Medieval one, people viewed the world wholy differently, it’s was litrally alien when compaired to ours.

Belive it or not it was far worse to gay in Medieval Europ, even the slightest rhumour could get you killed. I am not saying that people don’t suffer today or that there are not modern people with a, frankly Medieval, narrow mindset…but in comparison modern society as a whole is far more accepting than it was in the time period we are talking about.

2 Likes
#254

Though you yourself are speaking from a perspective of a modern day person. We can only speculate at how things were then. If it was truly alien (and yes the situation is different between people where I am and medieval times no question) that would mean it’s a concept that people of our era can’t wrap our minds around in which case we might as well be making a fantasy game.

#255

No I am not at all, I am basing my points on Historical texts/history books about this time period. I am not speculating nor are the historians who wrote the books, please stop trying to twist things in a false manner as there is nothing that irrriates me more

To try and say I use ‘speculation’ as an argument, when I have clear not done so, is a strawman argument in itself.

There are enough facts out there that clearly state societys view on sexuality, how can I be using a modern mind/speculating when I directly drawing from them!?

When I talked about mind sets, it was to point out how many modern people cleary can’t undersatnd, as in your case, why sexuality was not more open, you keep on recyling the same flawed argument of ‘but it could have been how do we know!’ we knwo it was not like this because we have written records of what happened topeople who where caught.

Just as many modern people can understand or why women where viewed as natural liars of lesser than men and why many wone of te day accepted that view.

That is what I mean by alien.

I unserstand more how things where because I read enough history books, watch enough history programs and re-enact/relive this period enough to know something about how it works. So please don’t presume what I do and do not know to say I am merely looking at it with a modern mind set.

Equaly the developers have done their reaserch to know whats was what.

You are using your modern mind/ how you personaly view the world to try and change or twist Medieval historical facts so that it fits what you personaly want the game to be like. The shere amount of time you have posted up about this subject seems to make that apparent to me.

As I said all my points have come from factual sources not what I personaly want to see, if homosexuality was open in this time period then I would have no qualms about it at all. You can try and twist my words/point if you wish but it makes your argument a lesser one.

As I have said on your other psost I have no issues with sexuality in games, when they are modern, futeristic or fantasy, but in a realistic historical game I am sorry but the devs have to go with how religion, sexual acceptance and life was at the time other wise was you yourself said they might as well be making a fantasy game.

If the game was based in Medieval Turky or Grease that would be another matter and your points/ wishs to include homosexuality, even openly so, in gameplay whold be utterly valid and more than likly it would be part of game play. It’s just not so much in Europ/England.

2 Likes
#256

Your claims suggest you believe the other posters here, myself included, are less knowledgeable than yourself. That’s an arrogant statement alone. More arrogantly you claim I make a point that I’ve never made “you keep on recyling the same flawed argument of ‘but it could have been how do we know!’” You are claiming you understand the mind of a medieval person, though even an historian wouldn’t claim to understand their mindset completely. Humans of any era can ONLY speculate upon the mindset of other eras. We can more accurately speculate based on knowledge left behind. That’s why “history is written by the victors” is a darn accurate statement though it can also be said “history is written by those in power”

So further more you say all of your claims are factual though I haven’t seen you comment in this thread prior to today if you make a claim and want to state it’s factual then you site your sources and even then it’s not “factual” it’s based on the claims on another person. Throughout this thread (which you appear to ignore) no one wants anything other than what is as factual as we can gather about this time period. You say you trust the developers as do the majority of us. So trust them to get it right. Also try to become more humble. Start by reading the 200+ post before yours and actually try to understand a persons points before claiming you know them instinctively (I say instinctively because I have no idea how you would think I always make the claim which you assert I make)

#257

@Madaras and @evil_blond_goth : If you want to settle something personal, there’s a feature called “private messages”. Use it wisely. You can unload your opinions about one another there. Thank you!

2 Likes
#259

To befair my forst message was nothing to do wit what I thought about Mardras personaly

#261

You can view my post as you wish it, does not mean your statments/views in regards to my meaning and intent are either apt or correct.

2 Likes
#262

Kind-of agree. I don’t think it’s ‘out to get people’ or ‘propaganda’, but it is rather annoying how art can no longer be made without someone shouting “What about women?!” or “What about the gays?!” or “What about the tranny-bi-pan-fur-asexual-homogeneous-trisexuals?!”

That being said, this topic does seem to be brought up in an OK light, but I feel like there’s no real reason to have a ‘gay’ quest, unless the devs decide to put it in as some kind of side mission or hidden AI behavior. Even at that, it doesn’t feel appropriate. It’s just not important…

6 Likes
#263

100% agree. IMHO, your last sentece had totally summarised the point of this whole thread. It is absolutely irrelevant to discuss this topic. I believe (hope) the creators of the game have the same opinion.

1 Like
#264

Incredible thread.

Some people saying sexuality is irrelevant in games, ignorant of characters like Nathan Drake or John Marston who’s sexuality is absolutely in the story, and ignorant of RPGs, which give sexuality a presence even more along with choices. If Uncharted isn’t about heterosexuality, then a gay lead or supporting character counterpart doesn’t make any other game about homosexuality.

Some people saying that it shouldn’t be there because it is just added for the sake of having it, ignorant of the context of the thread, which is clearly discussing ways that the setting and story of the game can be enriched with facets of actual period encounters. Sexuality is threaded into the plots of the majority of major literature and media. Maybe they just don’t notice when it is heterosexuality. Any romantic plotting or character interaction IS a revelation of sexuality. Not to mention, many people, including those on development teams, happen to know gay people or are gay, making it incredibly plausible for them to think to include it in their creative space.

Saying it doesn’t need to be mentioned anymore because gays are already accepted is so ignorant and false. Maybe the people here don’t know about the social and political climates of the world, but gay people do not share the same level of rights in most of the USA and the world, and it is ostracized heavily by many countries, many of which still make it a criminally punishable offense. Only recently did polls in the US indicate a majority of the public support equal rights for gay people, and the laws have yet to change in most places. Nobody except those who had problems with black people told them to stop speaking out during the Civil Rights Movement, and that’s very much how rights movements successfully occur. The minority speaks until they don’t need to, and social change shifts along the way.

How do you get laws and minds to change? You have to ask. How do you ask in politics? If you know anything about civil and social movements that have had any success, you know that the group must campaign and speak loudly until they have been accounted for everywhere and are no longer written out of specific rights or written into special criminal laws.

Saying it is propaganda to have it is ridiculous and unsupportable. Gay people exist in real life, in the lives of many players, and in the environments of many development studios. They are not all straight white people and shouldn’t be shamed for including other types of people in their stories, no matter how much of a minority those other types are.

Folks, gay people exist and always have. If people at Warhorse and players of their games want to see gays portrayed in their games, they can. And that has nothing to do with propaganda.

1 Like
#265

I’m glad you posted and I believe you make very excellent points. Though I’m gay I don’t feel like the laws are against me in the USA. However you’re certainly right people do ostracize us because it’s not the norm for them. However the difference between most people when it comes down to sexuality and race is in sexuality you have a choice and in race you don’t. Even if people intellectually know that to not be true people still believe it to be true and will create prejudices based on that which compliment their life norms. As I’ve mentioned before that where I live I can’t really come out or flirt with guys (and be simply “rejected” if they’re straight). People are readily offended if a guy even makes a friendly gesture towards them that are might be perceived as gay. But I’ve gone on longer than I intended. My point being is there is a much larger social problem for homosexuals than there are legal problems. Also that I think you wrote beautifully on the subject and I greatly appreciate it.

#266

I like good quests!
They could involve the topic of homosexuality or you know any of the other limitless possibilities. No specific event is very likely to happen. Sons of blacksmiths who’s family was murdered are just as much of an abnormal minority. If warhorse comes up with a quest that happens to involve homosexuality let them, something has to happen and unless the player is going to do fieldwork all day it’s going to be out of the ordinary. But doesn’t need to have a notable effect on how good a quest is.

Legal punishment for a crime doesn’t necessarily mean it was practiced in the same fashion. I very much doubt all the nobility went through the trouble of persecuting all there subjects who allegedly practiced sodomy.

Does Homosexuality exist as it’s own thing or would medieval people just consider it a form of sodomy? In any case they wouldn’t think in the same Categories as we do. So portraying them doesn’t have to be like homophobia.

As a left handed person I approve but as a gamer I don’t think it adds enough to the game to be worth the effort.

3 Likes
Realism, How far should it be taken
#267

What I was actually saying - is adding homosexuality to the game worth the effort? In Dragon Age or Mass Effect, for example, there were options of my male character having romantic relationships with party members of the same sex. But this is exactly what they were - options. Possibilities to distract from the main plot and bring some life into the main character to the player’s liking. What will happen here is creation of a new character class - the Gay. With a separate “tragic” background, new sets of relationships with almost all the groups of society. What for? It reminds me rather of The Stick of Truth with its Jew class. And while TSOT is a parody game, this one pretends to be an earnest one.
And I think sexuality is overrated in games. For me Nathan Drake’s adventures and his choices are not about sexuality - they’re about obsession. And Deliverance, I think, will be not about social standings and relationships - but about revenge and intrigue.

1 Like
#268

You missing the point, bud?

Let’s get this out of the way: the topic here is a discussion about a reasonable portrayal of homosexuality in the game’s setting, and it is entirely reasonable for Warhorse to have that in their game if they feel like it. That doesn’t make it propaganda or wasteful or forced. Warhorse developers are people and they live in a real world where many of them know gays or are gay, making it entirely logical that it could be something they would think to put in their writing and worlds. No one is saying to change the history of how you would have found out about gays in the time, or how gays would interact, or how your character would have to behave if he were gay in the time period.

Just the opposite - the thread is asking about what those portrayals realistically would be. But many here are determined to sweep it away as a topic like it didn’t exist back then, and many of them choosing obviously false and offensive wording to say so. No one is saying that minorities must all appear in all games by force to avoid offense. The issue in this case is that homosexuality existed in this setting and that makes it quite eligible for discussing potential portrayal.

Who is ignorant enough to publicly and falsely say there is any sort of demand for a character class called (I can’t believe I have to type this next term) “The Gay”? Is your rational use of ideas and game design so small that you don’t think it could be included as subtly as a side character simply dropping hints as they might have in the time? Or hearing rumors about a noble? You really think it is “The Gay” or nothing? That this would be forcing poor Warhorse to ruin their project by sending all their resources to “The Gay”?

If Uncharted isn’t about heterosexuality or playing as “The Straight,” despite the fact that it is clearly included in the story (if anyone didn’t see or hear about Nathan Drake’s sexuality, they must be deaf, blind, or outta their mind), then it is a perfect example of how sexuality is included in gaming and plot lines of varying degrees without these wild accusations of sexuality being propaganda (of course, since the people here don’t use consistent logic for this argument, it is only propaganda when they are talking about homosexuality in games).

And even more notable, is that Uncharted is not a series about choice. Every player had to see his heterosexual romantic plot line, yet people here are demanding it can only be there if it is a choice in Kingdom Come and trying to sound rational by saying that sexuality is irrelevant and must be a choice for them to have to deal with it being in the game. Or there’s people here just saying it is an agenda to be included (but only if it is homosexuality, because sexuality is totally off their radar apparently, if it is with straight characters). They are educated enough on some minorities to know the flaws of saying they wouldn’t want to have to see black people or Jews, but lacking consistent logic, they aren’t saying all minorities must only be about agendas, rather than acknowledgeable groups that have existed all along in real life.

It’s just homosexuality that is an agenda minority, or a waste of game resources, or being shoved down their throats if it is included, or is sexuality so it can’t be in a game (but we know that isn’t true for heterosexuality).

There is indeed a realistic way to portray homosexuality in the Kingdom Come setting, whether for the main character or for side characters, and Warhorse has every right to do so without any rational evidence that it would be a waste, propaganda, token diversity, or otherwise unrealistic. It existed back then, it can indeed exist in Kingdom Come as a project based in reality.

1 Like
#269

And here we go again.
First of all - I meant no offence with the term “the Gay”. I’ve used it only to display a similarity (in my opinion) between this problem and the parody class in TSOT. Was I, being a half-Jew, offended by Cartman? No. Because it’s that sort of game. But what happens if the Warhorse people introduce such a complicated matter into the game - and do it wrong? And however they do it - it will seem wrong to one person or another. The ice is too thin - when the gme pretends to be earnest and historically accurate. So they will sure try to make it as accurate and profound as possible - and I don’t believe other game elements won’t suffer because of that. Maybe I’m wrong - but why even risking it?
Second - I still don’t think Uncharted is about Nathan’s sexuality. Same is Tomb Raider has never been about Lara Croft’s ass (although it’s in the center of the screen most of the time). It’s an adventure game. And yes - Nathan makes a choice (sadly, without player’s intervention) between his obsession and his friends. Chloe and Helena being his romantic interests? Okay, yes. Victor posing as a fatherly figure? Sure. But does it make Uncharted a game about child-parent relationship or adultery? For all I care Chloe and Helena could be homosexual themselves - it’s their business. I just don’t care or mind. The problerm is when serious stuff is introduces in the game, characters tend to jump at me screaming - I’m homosexual/afroamerican/jewish/feminist! Oookay, I think then, but why do you tell me? Tell me the plot-important things. If orientation or race is important - I’ll read the details and deal with it. But if it’s one of the central topics - it’s just distracting or annoying. For political or social statements I can watch the news. In the game I want to live the story. Balanced story. Other stuff is just details. But for other people it isn’t (like sexuality in Uncharted, it seems). So there will be scandals around the game (like it always happens with GTA).
And I ask again - is it THAT necessary to risk problems by adding socially realistic features?

UPD - I’ve reached the replies limit for the topic - so here’ my reply for the later posts.
What Thiomay wrote in the first sentence there - that’s what I mean. I just can’t understand why it has to be accentualized if a character is homo/hetero or any other way sexual. But this being discussed in a separate topic worries me a lot. Because it means it will be discussed after the game is relesed - and by people who don’t care about game consistency or mechanics - but instead see propaganda everywhere. And those discussions always stink dreadfully. That is the risk I’m talking about.
Back to poor Nathan. If both Chloe and Helena were men - so what? Yes, the scene with Chloe jumping on top of Nathan would bear homosexual aura. And? Nothing would change. They both would still represent different approaches to life, not because of their gender or sexuality - but because of their personality and actions. Now if Victor was a woman - that could change something. Fathers and mothers deal with their children’s problem differently, after all.
Last of Us. I’ve heard of the game, I’ve played it, I’ve loved it (and the Left Behind DLC with its Ellie-Riley relationship twist; yes, I was a bit surprised - just have not expected it - but the DLC is still about friendship and resolve for me, and not sexuality issues). But we’re not talking just complex topics here. We’re talking contradictory topics. Still on one of the forum a girl tried to convince me that the ending of “Last of Us” is unrealistic. And Joel should have turned and left and then kill himself in sorrow - but saving humanity with this sacrifice. I think his character is built the other way and the ending is the only one possible with this main character. And it would not change if Tess was replaced by a male character Joel lived with. But still - complex topics lead to discussions. And sadly, rare discussions on sexuality topics are peaceful.
Now about screaming. Mass Effect 3. Shuttle pilot Cortez and James Vega. While James seems homosexual (I haven’t explored it deep enough though) - he’s a nice companion. Cortez, on the other hand… Okay, he’s not screaming - he rather whines. Yes, he had lost his husband, my character and I both think it’s a tragedy, but Cortez carries on about how he is homosexual and easily wounded. And caries on and carries on. And after some dialog lines it starts to annoy me a lot. Luckily most games where I meet characters, actively propagating alternative sexualities and lifestyles are of comic and parody kind (like Borderlands, for example) - but even there these jokes are more intense than necessary. It’s as if authors decided to exaggerate this one trait instead of giving charater a complex (if even funny) personality.

#270

You are using a straw man argument. You are taking what is a legitimate, absolutely approachable topic and saying it is a significant risk, that it is inherently detracting from the game’s approach to realism, and that games with minority topics tend to scream it at you. I’d like some examples that led you to see that such topics “tend to jump at” you screaming.

And I pointed out that Uncharted isn’t about his sexuality, just like you, but I also acknowledged that it is an essential driver in his interactions with two other lead characters in the games’ plots, which you seem to be ignoring or downplaying. My point is that sexuality is present and the game is unhindered by it. You are saying that just by said sexuality being homosexuality, it is a risk, it is more likely to be what the game is about, it is more likely to be “screamed” at you, and it should not be covered since it can seem complex to some. Since when do serious games need to avoid serious or complex topics and messages? Maybe you haven’t heard of The Last of Us. Few noble or intellectual creators would agree that a topic should be avoided simply because of the many considerations that can come with minority or diversity representations.

Sorry, but games with minority topics don’t carry significant risk or failure over those topics in any recent notable titles that I’ve seen in gaming. So again, I’d love some examples. And perhaps GTA scandals is a poor choice since it holds the world record for game sales now, which it attained when it happens to feature a handful of minority and controversial messages and topics and openly mocks and parodies conservative social views. I very much want to understand how the topics you listed “tend” to do what you would call “screaming” in detail.

1 Like
#271

I doubt there is a specific way homosexuals spoke or walked in this period. It wouldn’t need to be some thing that defines the main character and requires an extra class at all if it were implemented. In a way there was no homosexuality because the duality of hetero- and homosexuality wasn’t invented until the 19th century.

People in the game era had different boundaries. Without the custom of handshakes men kissing in public wouldn’t be an issue. The idea of everyone having there own bed also isn’t something you can take for granted and think about any winter with limited fuel. Touching in public had less of an association to sodomy or homosexuality and more with signifying friendship or alliance. So in a way a same sex couple could be more public than in modern day Russia.

I trust that if warhorse where to implement anything in that direction they intend to do it subtle. So ‘propaganda or not’ really isn’t an issue. Everything involving people is political! There can be no true objectivity. If Warhorse makes a game there views and opinions will be reflected in it in some manner.

3 Likes
#272

Ok, but what if they were both men? Logically speaking that would make Nathan gay and since nothing else, but the gender of the characters, changes that would mean it’s not propagandizing or has anything to do with sexuality. Don’t you think?

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