Homosexuality In The Game/Time Period

Off-topic
#356

first of all you forgot the next part.
“However, a measurable higher percentage acknowledge having same-sex attraction, or experience, without identifying as LGBT.”

Also you miss the "community. You can be gay without being part of the “community”

Also you misuse the stats. Bisexual is also effected by any legal or social limits to same sex activities. So 3,8% is the correct number to use.

And lastly please provide evidence for anyone actually executed (by the law or a mob) in this “crime” in Bohemia around 1400. (and that goes for everyone else who keep writing that it was punishable by death)

If it was so common, surly that would be easy.

#358

to get a figue would be near impossible , in the 1400’s mos nations if not all in europe were run by the churches law , for example if you were growing corn you were obliged by law to hand a percentage over to the church . if a person was found to be gay they would of be tried for it which carried the maximum punishment of death , in most cases it ended in death but you may of been imprisoned or put in a stock and stoned etc

#359

In those times homosexuality among regular people was punishable because it was “sin”.

But in churches/monasteries there were plenty of non-traditional sex relations, including really sick, because of Celibacy.

Since many religious “leaders” were in “sin”, they always exerted maximum efforts to keep these little secrets inside. It’s the same as drug subculture nowadays when it’s widely popular among the elite but punishable for regular people.

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#360

Wiki:
“As time went on, punishments for homosexual behavior became harsher. In the thirteenth century, in areas such as France, male homosexual behavior resulted in castration on the first offense, dismemberment on the second, and burning on the third. Lesbian behavior was punished with specific dismemberments for the first two offenses and burning on the third as well. By the mid-fourteenth century in many cities of Italy, civil laws against homosexuality were common. If a person was found to be homosexual, the city’s government was entitled to confiscate the offender’s property.”[sic]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_medieval_Europe#Punishment_in_medieval_times)

http://www.theawl.com/2012/05/sex-and-punishment
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gaymidages.asp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ptop/plain/A7715315

:wink:

“Accusations of sodomy and homosexuality were also frequently used in conjunction with charges of heresy, including by the Inquisition, as a convenient excuse to charge political opponents of rulers and powerful men. Similarly, Dante placed sodomites in the seventh circle of hell in his The Divine Comedy and many of those he mentions were his political rivals - though he is not trying to charge them with anything, simply to discredit and insult them.”
:smiley: Oh Dante, you wag!

#361

If it’s prohibited and punishable, it doesn’t mean everybody is going to abide this law. History shows that the most of prohibitions were non effective and only encouraged people to move into “underground”. The same as with drugs/alcohol in 20th century.

In reality many medieval monasteries were probably like secret gay clubs :slight_smile:

#362

That’s of course true.

#363

its like the war on drugs you cant ever get rid of it but make it hard for the people involved to survive , i j ust hope they dont make it blatant because that would be extremely unrealstic , i can assure you the local preist/bishop would of made sure any case that came to his attention would of resulted in harsh punishment

#364

The whole gay priest stereotype is bullshit you are more likely to be raped by your teacher than a priest.

#365

Majority of people did abide by this law because like modern times majority of the population was straight. If you were gay you were killed back then simple. Your family would have turned you in back then so i wish every would stop saying there would be these huge secret gay communities.

#366

Yeah its pretty sad how bad we cater to minorities these days. Especially ones that small.

#367

You clearly can’t see past you own opinions. and fail to understand that things was not black and white… and there where regional differences and there where a huge difference from a peasant to a powerful lord.

Also, you don’t get executed for a sin. You get x years in purgatory unless you confess it and do penances.
If you do confess, you have to say x ave maria, maybe your are told to go on a pilgrimage or donate money to a church.
By the late medieval period some sins did become secular crimes also and then you start to se the secular authorities prosecute… but again difference between a peasant and a lord.

Many of you also clearly don’t understand that if a new law against x is enacted, then it is usually a sign that that specific action is a widespread problem.
(In Denmark selling alcohol at the location of a legal trail became illegal. Why? because drunk judges, witnesses and spectators was a real problem… some years later the fine was doubled… because the law didn’t work)
So the fact that this did in some areas become a secular crime is a good indication that “administration” saw it as a clear problem.

Finally, please back up you statements with sources.
Tunak did that. thanks.

And to quote nr. 2: (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gaymidages.asp1)
Scandinavia has left a little evidence in law and literature about homosexual practice [62]. A single regulation of 1164 survives against all homosexual activity, but does not seem to have been enforced.

And Since Iam Danish and the focus of my education have been Skandinavia Iam rather critical of the “all gays where killed” (Iam a medieval archaeologist/historian)
But I admit that this game takes place in Bohemia and things might very well have been different there. (the building style is)

That is why Iam arguing this topic. Not because Iam gay (Iam not) or "cater to minorities"
But because we where promised a historical game. And I want the game to treat this topic fairly. And I want to actually learn something about Bohemia in 1403.

If 40% of people in this part of Bohemia in the year 1403 was guy/lesbians… then I think they should be so i the game.
Offcause that % is too high, and we simply don’t know.
But bashing gays, supporters of them and the people who are in the opposite camp is not the way to handle the question… Provide sources is… and then hopefully the Devs will make a educated decision based on historical facts… and not modern opinions about gays.

nr 3. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ptop/plain/A7715315)
Notwithstanding the potential punishments, in continental Europe cases were rarely tried and in fact, records show that no one was convicted during the reigns of French Kings Louis IX (died 1270) or Phillip IV (died 1314)
So from 1226 to 1312 no one convicted of it… so much for “all gay’s where killed” That statement is simply not supported by the sources.

Again, thanks to Tunak for providing some useful information.

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#368

none of those sources confirm or deny any of your claims, either warriant or yours. it just says during one period, inside of france, homsexuality wasn’t prosecuted by law. but that doesn’t mean there weren’t social prohibitions or even vigilantism. and it doesn’t mean gays weren’t killed, either. it means homosexuality wasn’t convicted. they may have simply lumped it altogether under heresy or witchcraft or even other forms of crime.

also, i’d be wary of bbc. they’ve been known to push agendas. the link you proivided doesn’t seem to work.

#369

Burning Witches have very little to do with the medieval period. That didn’t become popular until after the reformation.

And the persons who wrote “all gays where killed” is the one who have to prove it.

In Scandinavia there is not much evidence of any sort of legal prosecution against gays
In France we have a 86 year period where not one person was prosecuted for it.

And yes, that don’t prove that gays was not killed. But there is no evidence to support the statement that "All gays where killed"
Had there been large scale attacks on Gays, like we see on the Jews, it should be easy to show us the prof of it.

And had there been large scale prosecution then there would be evidence for it. Especially if it was the church who did it.

Also many laws where not enforced. The Kings where not all powerful and even the church had its limits. Both Kings and church was dependent on the local lords, Barons and so on. And there was a good deal of “might makes right” So If a lord was gay and it was known… He might very well get away with it… and if someone made a problem of it, he paid off the church… problem solved.

If we look at the game Crusader Kings II, Homosexuality just give you a -10 penalty to you relations with you vassals.
Sure that is a clear penalty, but not something that ruins your life.

Anyway, We can go in writing out opinions about this, and at best using sources for other parts of Europe… or we can hope someone can actually provide a source for how things where around 1400 in Bohemia.

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#370

You would need to base that claim by some sources. Same sex relationship in a monastery is highly probable.

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#371

Those sources I posted claims something completely different. (That during rule of Phillip the IV. and Louis the Saint there were no such processes documented despite homosexuality being outlawed in France.)

#372

I suppose the thing is people were scarcely openly homosexual. It should be perhaps likened to association football. :smiley: But you were not able to hide your jewish descent so easily. (Because you were part of the community.) In case there were homosexual communities they would have been bullied without doubt.

#373

Homosexuals are seen as an abomination in the eyes of the church. If you were openly gay back then you would be,killed, have your property taken away. Penance was 160 days of asking for forgiveness for lesbian acts and 1 year for gay male acts. It was different from place to place but in almost all of Europe it was illegal and punished. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_medieval_Europe

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#374

Have you ever heard of the inquisition? Obviously not. Please educate yourself.

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#376

Where are your sources for that??

#377

Ok, lets go with it…

If 3.8% of Adults are gay/lesbian, it is then reasonable to conclude that 96% percent of adults are straight, yes? Which if nothing more confirms that, no matter how loud and proud, the gay population is a very small minority of the game’s customer base. From a future marketing standpoint, catering to this issue makes very little rational sense.

I believe future sales would suffer adversely should KingdomCome acquire the stigma as having a homosexual focus.

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