Is courtship an option in this game? and if so a homosexual relationship historically would have been frowned upon. would need some shady stable boy rendezvous.
Honestly this whole conversation is funny.
Sex is Sex. Love is Love. whatever variables you wanna through in there is all gravy. why we continue the mad obsession with defining our preferences amazes me.
First of all, any educated person knows that Wikipedia is not a useful source. Since you canât identify the writer and anyone can edit the texts. (but a ok starting point for looking for more infomation)
The inquisition was only really active in some countries and they still had to depend on the local authorities.
Also, that something is illegal donât stop people from doing it.
the 6th commandment.
âThou shalt not commit adulteryâ
But people still did⌠and do.
And Leviticus 20:10:
And the man that committeth adultery with another manâs wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbourâs wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
So naturally all persons who committed adultery was killed⌠because that is the law.
Off cause they where not. Even people who where openly doing it. Pretty easy to find Nobles and royalty who was guilty of thisâŚ
And the medieval state was not as effective at upholding the law, since it was depended on much more decentralized authorities. Again, the nobles who had to provide the manpower for upholding the law might not be interested in doing so.
You keep insisting that âall gays where killedâ This You need to prove. So please provide sources that support that all gays in Europe where killedâŚ
To be fair, I accept that you donât use primary sources. Just quote me a few examples. with the title of the book, the author and page number.
But since you canât provide that, how about any evidence of some gays being killed. In a case that was about sexuality, and not politics. (the prosecution of the Templars was about money and power⌠)
someone ells argued that having homosexuality possible wold be bad for the sales⌠I think that is wrong, since a number of other games already have had this element⌠and I donât remember reading any articles about how it hurt the sales.
All homosexuals surely werenât killed. Even Richard the Lionheart and other monarchs are supposed to be homosexual for godâs sake. Many crusaders surely were bisexuals or had bisexual experinces at least because bisexual relationship were pretty common in Muslim countries, especially (or rather exclusively) nobility. (Even during 20th century tribal warlords such as El Hadj Thami El Glaoui were known to be able to present their guests with a berber girl or boy of their choice.)
(I would argue itâs highly probable even for example Saint Augustine had bisexual experiences to say the truth. It was pretty common during Classical Antiquity. But thatâs another topic of course.)
Donât consider a any published book a good source. 
Allways be critical.
Quotes of Old Testament are (and were) highly problematic. Surely they were used during scholastical arguments. But I would argue they rather rarely served as a basis of actual laws. Or in other words they were no laws but they often served as a justification of a law or opinion in case it served the position of the scholar.
Donât consider a any published book a good source. wink always be critical.
Offcause I am always critical. Lots of books that is full of lies. And sometimes they write something you donât agree on.
(My BA was basically an argument on why a well known British historian, John Keegan was wrong about an statement on early firearms)
But even then, you sometimes have to trust people. The problem is that if you tell us that x medieval manuscript (in latin) say something I sort of have to trust you. Since I would not have access to the manuscript and I donât read latin.
So you have to use you gut feeling sometimes.
If you quote an academic article/book, you might be able to link to it. or I can go the my university library and get it.
So I have a better chance of reading it myself.
So for an internet debate like this, using Articles / Books that is online is a clear advantage.
Old Testament:
You are correct. But that is what I had access to (and time to find).
âSirWarriantâ keep insisting that is something was illegal then it was not done. and everyone guilty was prosecuted.
And clearly that is not correct.
Adultery was illegal⌠but the evidence of adultery is easy to find.
But of course. i donât doubt using sources, only advice using them with consideration. Especially medieval sources (highly biased) and conclusions built upon medieval sources.
There you are right without doubt. I suppose we can conclude that homosexuality was usually forbiden in medieval Europe with perhaps some exeptions. (Then again as far as I know only sexual practice allowed by church was the intercourse of married couples in missionary position and the meaning of sexual activity was restricted to reproduction only.) But there surely was about the same amount of consciously or restrained homosexual people as during every other period of human cultural civilization because homosexuality is according to general scientific consensus (and notwithstanding unsupported opinion of religious or otherwise biased fanatics) not culturally determined.
Nobles were above the law pretty much im talking about the common folk which you keep ignoring . Wikipedia is a trust worthy source could you please explain why its not??? If you have never heard of the inquisitions then youâre not even worth my time. Google inquisitions you will come up with multiple homosexual persecutions and witches. These took place from the 1100s to the early 1300s.
you dont understand europe was run by religion it is in the bible that man should not lay with man therefore to every man woman and child it was unthinkable that someone would go against âgodâ a type of sharia law , the punishment was death if a nation was to go against that then they would have to answer to the pope
of course gay people existed but they would of hid it so well that its irrelevant to add it to the game. i would likely suspect if a mother suspected her son to be gay she would of marched them too a witch doctor or a priest to try and
"cure" him .
âsourcesâ involving medieval era are pretty much 90% secondary sources therefore hold very little standing coming from a factual point of view
exactly (20 characters)
You keep demanding where i get my information from when you produce no sources of your own.
And im still curious as to why this topic was re opened when its already confirmed that the whining worked and they are putting gay characters.
this is omting i read some time ago and i think that it explain abit of how peppol think in that time period.
As a result of this degeneracy there is developed either anarchy or tyranny. Why? Because what happens is that there is a rejection of God as ultimate authority, and in the resulting vacuum, something has to move, something has to become the ultimate authority and it is always some element of creation or society or government. Therefore you end up with some kind of polar opposite, either tyranny or anarchy. If it is anarchy everything is in chaos and someone has to come in and bring order, so once again that goes right back to tyranny and some sort of bondage or tyrannical despotism that is established. This is exactly what we see in the earliest civilizations.
As biblical truth impacts a culture it transforms that society with biblical norms and standards, establishment truth, and the result is stability, order, peace, prosperity, and cultural advance. The classic example of this is what happened during the Reformation. If we look at where western Europe was and where the Roman Catholic church had taken it in the late Middle Ages there were a number of different problems with society. People were basically down-trodden, there was no freedom, there was not a lot of economic growth. Things were starting to break out in the 1400s but that was because of the same factors that influenced and provided for the Reformation. There was a pre-Reformation, as it were, as a result of Wycliffe in London and his followers who were translating the Bible into the common language of the people. They were persecuted. There were the Hussites in Bohemia teaching the truth and were persecuted as well by the Roman Catholic church. But as the Reformation began to have its impact there was an environment established in western Europe for real freedom. If we were to identify the nations where we have experienced the greatest levels of freedom that would be North America, Britain, the English-speaking countries. Then in the next level of freedom we would identify other Reformation impacted nations such as Germany, Scandinavian countries, Switzerland. Then the next tier is the Roman Catholic countries like Spain, France, Italy, eastern Europe which never experienced the kind of economic freedom and prosperity or individual freedom that there was in either the Germanic countries, northern Europe that was impacted by Protestant theology or English-speaking. Then we look at the rest of the world which never developed concepts of freedom and never had the kind of economic prosperity across the board, available to every individual citizen, that there was at the other end of the spectrum, as for example, the United States of America and English-speaking countries. What makes the difference is ultimately theology. It is one of the most practical illustrations that theology matters when it permeates the culture. What came out of the Reformation was that there were leaders who were taking the Word of God and using it to think through all the different areas of life. That laid the foundation for modern civilization. That foundation was laid in the 16th century, 17th century, and on into the 18th century. It wasnât until the shift from the 18th century to the 19th century where pagan enlightenment ideas began to permeate the university structure of western civilization there were seen the start of the foreshadowings of our collapse. So the principle is that as biblical truth impacts the culture it transforms that society with biblical norms and standards and establishment truth, and the result is going to be stability, order, peace, and prosperity.
On the other hand, you have the opposite. As biblical truth is rejected and diluted biblical norms become demonized. The result is social instability, disorder, chaos, a loss of prosperity, and cultural decline.
We have to recognize that there are biblical norms of divine establishment that God built into creation. These are established for everyone, both believer and unbeliever. The institution of marriage breaks down because of, among other things, sexual perversion. Sexual perversion is an outgrowth of self-absorption, a key element in arrogance. So the more arrogant a culture becomes, the more it is divorced from God, the more self-absorbed they are, the more they are interested in their own sexual pleasure. With this hyper-attention to their own sexuality there is a breakdown in marriage.
As society utilizes and applies establishment principles it is going to stabilize, strengthen, and prosper.
But when a society rejects these norms it is going to fragment, destabilize, and lose prosperity. It all starts falling apart.
Sodom is a picture of what happens at the end of the cycle. Some principles from the chapter:
People are viewed in terms of how they can be used for the benefit and pleasure of others. As soon as these messengers go into Sodom the residents of Sodom want to sexually abuse them all night long. In this pagan culture people are viewed only in terms of how they can be used for benefit and personal pleasure of others. It is all about me!
Women and men are no longer viewed as individuals in the image of God, they are simply sex objects, objects of pleasure.
As paganism dominates a culture there is an increasing connection between sex and violence.
Sexual violence and abuse of women and men increases and becomes normative in a culture.
There is a rise of criminality with little concern for the victim.
Homosexuality and bi-sexuality, as well as sexual gratification outside of marriage are accepted and approved. These become normative in the culture.
This emphasis on personal gratification is the eventual result of an increase in self-absorption and self-gratification that at its roots destroys the possibility of a healthy society.
We have to recognize that sex was not only designed for pleasure but for procreation. When we talk about procreation we are talking about the future, so it looks to the future of the race and the future of society. Homosexuality ignores the future and is willing to sacrifice the future for the pleasures of the present.
Sodom pictures the end of the cycle. This is the most perverse culture that we have seen in human history and it was necessary for God to judge it and destroy it. The problems in Sodom and the cities of the plain are a microcosm of what is going on in the broader Canaanite culture as a whole and where that it headed.
Which is why God destroys Sodom, not only as a warning to Israel but as a warning to all subsequent civilizations that if they allow themselves to deteriorate and follow this pattern then they are going to destroy themselves in the same way.
Sodom is a direct refutation of the myth that sexual orientation and what goes on in the privacy of the bedroom is a neutral issue as far as society is concerned. That is the lie that we are told. For example, why do we have laws that make adultery illegal? Why do we have laws that make homosexuality illegal? It is because there was an understanding that if there was a permissiveness towards these acts then it was self-destructive for the culture, that they didnât just stay in the bedroom, that there was a connection between sexual activity and sexual orientation and spirituality and the integrity of the nation. Once the dyke is allowed to collapse in one area it affects all the other areas. What Genesis 19 and the book of Judges demonstrates is that it does affect us. It is both a cause and an effect.
Divine viewpoint teaches that homosexuality is a direct attack on the first three divine institutions: on individual responsibility, on marriage, and on family. And it results in an assault on the fourth and fifth divine institutions.
There are parallels between this episode in Sodom and the episode in Judges chapter nineteen.
Im confused are you for them putting gays in the game or against?
im not against and im not for it , personely i donât like gay stuff and donât like to come a cross it in stuff im dowing to relax ore injoy and it dus make me feel unconferball but at same time i do respect the gay peppol i my self have a brothere that is gay i just dont talck about it with him what his dus but he olsoo dont have to hide it frome me i treat him like i wold treat every one els but im a religis man and personeli i do think acting on gay fellings and not bean gay is rong and against god will but i do belive that the same richt i have to whant to pick up alot of girls in the game and let here ride my horse dus aplies to the gay peppol to day dus have the same richt to have the same fun as me i just hoop if it dus come in the game that day olso put some way for peppol that dont like it to avoid it sorry for my bad English
EhemâŚ
No it isn´t in the ten commandments
At least it wasn´t when I checked last.
AndâŚwhy is this discussion open again?? An argument about the existence of gays in the game is pointless because it was already confirmed and an argument about how exactly gay people were treated is pointless as well because our knowledge is not sufficient enough to say for sure.
There are not that many sources that treat this topic in particular and those who do are contradictory and/ or inconsistent. Please don´t start this fight again >-<
The main issue i have is the media portraying it in shows, movies, and games. They try to make it seem like half the world is gay, there always has to be a gay person in everything now a days and im sick of it. There are other much bigger minorities that dont get represented in shows, movies, games etc. You never hear them complaining. They removed marriages from lord of the rings online because you couldnât be gay in it. There were no gay characters in the books, or movies. The game is trying to stay true to the lore which has no mention of homosexuals. Im sick of them freaking out if there arenât gays in everything.
Thats what ive been saying but people for gays in this game have kept this thread going. And yes the Catholic church follows the ten commandments (im Catholic). It is considered a mortal sin to be gay. The scripture is if a âif a man lies with a man as he would with a women they have committed an abomination and will be turned over in their own bloodâ Not sure if i got the quote 100% correct but you get the idea that it is a very serious sin. People saying the church would have just shrugged it off are completely full of crap. The only way you would have gotten away with it was if you were a noble but the church still had the right to refuse you communion and excommunicate you.
It is a sin yes.
But it is NOT in the ten commandments. It is mentioned in the 3rd book of Moses, Leviticus, verse 18 to be exact. And if I recall correctly it´s mentioned again in some other laws in the 4th Book of Moses, Numeri.
EDIT: It is considered as sin. Not " It is a sin" , sorry
i understand how you feel and at some point i feel the same for exsampel i live in netherland here day have a gay paride someting i find a waist of tax payer money and discusting to see you cold say dan just do go to it , and i dont go to it but you cant excape it becos its in the news its on tv its every singel place you look at that time i think to my self where is my paride dan with striper girls every vere i wold love to have a hetro paride , but i whas born in brasil i my self am ligth brauwn but i do have diferint blood tipe in me and one of doos is slave blood and black peppol where treating like shit for 400 years and til this day the duch (netherland) president refuse to say sorry for the role day playd in selling slaveâs and most peppol know that duch where the bigest slave trader in the world and evean if we dont have slaves any more coller peppol are still mistreated alot i my self have come acros alot of racist peppol and know most peppol are still racist evean if day dont say it op laud so that felling i have for to figth against such treatment must be the same for gay peppol that still olsoo are mistreatid and evean killd for exsampel onces every 2 days in brasil some one is killed just becos he is gay so i do understand why the gay peppol figth so much for it and trow it down ore trougth
The moderators really just need to close this thread. There is absolutely no point in it being open still and is just going to cause more arguing.