But if it’s only a guess then it’s not any more “authentic” than changing the spelling for an easier read. So we can omit this “guessed authenticity” altogether because it’s of no use and if applied in case of using Middle English it would be a waste of effort, time and money.
But that’s not relevant anymore anyway because (thanks to your suggestion) early Modern English with only sprinkles of Middle English words (as described above) is the most recent idea for the ‘Archaic English’ option.
Another thing is, how can you be so nit-picking when it’s the wrong language in the first place?
Remember, “point and laugh”? Why no laughing in this regard?
Anyway that’s another topic.
Is that so?
But you suggested Modern English mixed with some old words here and there yourself.
Where is the difference? You just shifted from Early Modern English to Modern English (20th century).
But somehow my suggestion is ‘wrong’ and yours is ‘correct’?
So much for the realism people’re demanding in every other aspect of the game.
I don’t get this attitude.
German localization is confirmed in the FAQ.
Also, Czech is confirmed and in progress.
Why would that be hardcore? These localizations and several more will be made anyway. So, please, abstain from this “extreme über extra effort” babble, it’s not true.
Authentic would be an additional option not replacing anything.
It’s not ‘just a guess’; it’s a reconstruction based on a lot of research. Obviously we can’t be 100% sure how people of Chaucer’s time sounded without building a time machine, but a lot of the changes in English pronunciation since that time (e.g. in vowel sounds) are very well documented. See this video where a historian explains how we can reconstruct historical pronunciation with a reasonable degree of accuracy (he’s talking about Shakespearean dialogue rather than Middle English, but the principle is the same).
That’s precisely the point: I am laughing, and not in a good way. Imagine if all the combat in the game showed the characters stage-fighting like in an old Errol Flynn movie, while dressed in a patchwork of armour and clothing from different eras of history: that’s how I feel when hearing the dialogue in the video. The problem is not that it isn’t authentic, since you’re never going to get 100% authenticity unless you use medieval Czech; the problem is that it sounds fake. If Warhorse keep that style of dialogue, I am honestly going to have to get the game in another language, because it is downright painful to listen to.
What I suggested is that ‘old words’ should be used when there is no equivalent in modern English (and by ‘modern’ I don’t mean ‘explicitly 21st-century’, by the way; I mean modern in terms of structure, vocabulary and pronunciation). That’s not the same thing as mixing two different periods together; it’s the same approach you’d find in any history book. If that’s what you meant to start with, fair enough, but I wasn’t specifically addressing you in any case. And yes, you could do the same thing with Early Modern English - but that would require the writers to actually know Early Modern English in the first place, which kind of defeats the point.
Let me give an example of some dialogue which I actually did think worked reasonably well: the constable’s lines from the scene where they visit the stables. I don’t have access to the video right now, but let’s take one particular line: “Men are worse than beasts.” This isn’t something which a 21st-century person would be likely to say - we’d probably use ‘animals’ in place of ‘beasts’, for instance - but the vocabulary is still in use, so it’s instantly understandable to a modern speaker. It sounds naturalistic (the actor’s performance helps), and gives the dialogue a ‘period’ flavour without the need to spam words like ‘forsooth’ and ‘gramercy’. By contrast, the first line in that scene (“By the hounds of Hades! What churls would do this devilry?”) is completely over the top, and the actor understandably sounds uncomfortable saying it.
If I had the time, I’d go through all the dialogue in the video and rewrite it in a similar style to try and explain my point. But what’s really needed is for Warhorse to hire someone who actually does this for a living - say, a historical novelist or a scriptwriter for historical TV shows. Writing dialogue in a language that’s not your own is very difficult; writing in a style that’s not even used any more is doubly difficult, and it’s hardly surprising that it ends up sounding awkward and forced.
I would prefer dragon age approach with mostly modern English since the language skill doesn’t measure ones intellect. It’s just depend on level of exposure and usage, so i would prefer it to be modern and more easily distinguishable to masses of non native speakers like myself, with some characters that could speak it in ye Olde English for flavor sake, or accents modern English + accents for different cultures would work for me too.
Why hardcore?
International release with purely local language voiceovers (as an artistic intention) in gaming is so far (as far as I know) a rather rare option at best.
In movies it’s reather common to produce them primarily in local languages, or various language combinations to create a more authentic feel, but in gaming industry this is not that usual. The combining of languages does happen, but usually it just follows the trends from major filmmaking of featuring English as the main universal language intelligible for most of the worldwide audience and a couple of other languages on the side as a kind of decoration to make it feel more authentic (like Tarantino’s Inglourious Basterds… and most of WW2 themed games always featuring German/Russian/Japanese/etc. alongside English).
With games, no matter where they come from, this is the best you can usually expect. Look at russian games like Metro or STALKER for example. For the sake of international audience accepting the game without much difficulty, it’s primary in English and Russian is featured just on the side to enhance the atmosphere.
Trying to play the game in its domestic language localization is generally understood as (for foreign gamers) a kinda hardcore, pretty much above-ordinary gaming experience. Not many people do that. And with KCD (considering the overall high-above-ordinary approach for the authentic feel of its setting) the “hardcore” label would count double time, if Warhorse implemented even a set of setting-authentic voiceovers right into the international version of the game. Which is not being planned so far.
At this point, they confirmed only the English voiceovers version and any particular other localizations (even the domestic CZ one) are just a considered possibility, which depends mostly on the budget and the outcome of agreements with local distribution.
I, too, really enjoyed the dialog in the live stream and would hate to see it transformed into something more current or contemporary. I don’t think it needs to be 100% period accurate to please a small minority of backers who may know the difference; especially if it detracts from the average player being able to get the jist of what is being said. The goal should be to find a balance between immersion and understandability given the overall context (as others have mentioned). I am sure when the mini-games for smithing come along, there will be another small minority of backers who cry foul at the technique being illustrated. But lets not forget it’s a game, and these sub-groups will just have to grin and bear it for the common good.
An other aspect: It is not only english, but also other languages that are concerned.
German for instance. In Germany we had two different languages in the middle ages. Only very few people would undertand old Low-German from the northern part. The High-German from the south is what Martin Luther had spoken. It is not impossible, but also not easy to understand for modern Germans. Because of that, they had developed an artificial pseudo-medieval language at renaissance-fairs and medieval-spectaculum (Mittelaltermärkte). If they do this in KDC, I would go mad. “Werter Recke, wohin des Weges solch schnellen Schrittes?” Urgh!!!
Although I’m decried here as authentic-freak: I would really prefer good normal (modern) language but without slang words.
It is always difficult to create the right balance between historical accuracy and playable story. Of course, the same problem arises in connection with our synchronization. Today’s English or former English? Today’s German or former German? Or even Czech? Subtitles? But it is certainly not in the sense of the player to use a dictionary, to understand the dialogues. As much more we are interested in your views and opinions to create the best results.
I agree ^^ although keep it balanced so that the “uneducated” in game speak the language of commoners and not nobles. ^^ Would make it quite interessting
Well, I agree with Loksley. As a German and a historian, I would be doubly tormented by hearing any constructed artificial “Marktsprech”, which is another term for what some folks use on german Renaissance Fairs/Mittelaltermärkte. Basically the only form of language for commoners would be their dialect - even harder to understand for modern day speakers. Then of course the clergymen could speak Latin - but who besides someone like teachers or historians could understand that without subtitles? I suggest to use modern day language in all localizations of the game, but without modern words referring to modern concepts of society, i.e. democracy, equality of men and women, industrial ways of production and the likes. Possibly add in modern day dialects for flavour. Come on, northerners/southerners from all the countries, if you try hard enough, you can understand each other, but hearing the other’s dialect or even someone speaking dialect at all in a game will make it sound a little… immersive, I hope.
quote="Helena, post:11, topic:9537"
Now if Warhorse really want to go to the ludicrous effort of writing all their dialogue in authentic Middle English, finding actors capable of speaking it properly, and translating it all into Modern English subtitles so that players can actually understand it… I’m actually fine with that. Seriously, I would be very impressed. (…)
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I like the idea of a game in middle English generally but all versions of English are equally not Czech which is very likely the native language of the main character. But since the english version of the game replaces 15century czech i think the modern english with some old vocabulary (maybe even period czech) to represent different ways of thinking is the way to go.
Also I agree with Tourist that Dialects would be good, they could also represent related western slavic languages or differences within czech. However the main character likely shouldn’t understand all latin and german perfectly so I think not translating that at all or only subtitling it (depending on the situation) would be the best representation. It might actually be an advantage if nobody understood what the low-german characters or the clergy are saying because neither does henry, so I think period and region accurate language could work great in some cases, i just don’t see how it’s worth it for english. Because it doesn’t add to the level off accuracy and takes from playability.
Another way that crossed my mind is not actually going straight for historical English with the English voiceovers, but rather for the local Czech - the way that Russians do it in their games like Metro or in the STALKER (Ukraine). The voiceovers are in English, but the pronunciation is realized with a russian accent to underline the environment where the story takes place and the nationality of the characters.
That would mean either using Czech voice artists which would put the accent into the voiceovers naturally, or a “mock-up” acted by foreign voice artists like it’s usually done when someone plays a different nationality in a movie. This would be more place-accurate than historical English.
I think that especially a case of historical English put together with Czech words, names, terms etc. might actually get a bit troublesome at some points.
This has been already discussed in a different thread. I personally consider using czenglish in the game as a pretty terrible idea. It would only make ingame people sound like foreigners in their own country. If the game will be voiced in english (and I think it’s sure thing for many obvious reasons), we really shouldn’t try to make the language more historically or “place” accurate by adding some ridiculous accent. It won’t add on accuracy a single bit, simply because the language they speak is english… The least what can be done is to make them speak proper english (whether shakespearean or modern).
Just like with everything, it would pretty much depend on the approach of whoever is in charge of the voiceovers. Czech accent can work with English just like any other (Russian, French, German, we know all those well from movies and they do work), but you have to handle it reasonably and avoid exaggerating it. It would need a bit of work (well, just like the historical English would I guess…).
It won’t be fun to play a game in a language that nobody speaks, it is also a bad business decision for Warhorse. I don’t know if anyone before me linked this (or a similar) video, but I certainly don’t want to play a game in a language that nobody speaks anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE0MtENfOMU (just listen - don’t read along)
Honestly, I haven’t read the whole thread.
On the one hand it might be quite nice to have this “shakespearean” language, if only for the atmosphere.
On the other hand problems will come up with the choice of this “dead language”. Not only that there will certainly be quite a lot native speakers that won’t understand everything but possibly even more non-native speakers, such as myself.
I’m not looking forward to a game that will be much story-driven but one has to read and even re-read the conversations because no word is understood. Better stick to current english, maybe with some appropriate accents (but from speakers that really have this accent and don’t act like they do).
You wouldnt understand any of the language. “old english” isnt saying thou and thy it is an almost entirely different language. Why have a game speak something you dont understand. At that point why not just through in just random noises. The point of having great dialog and story is so you can experience them. What you saw in the video is not shaksperean language, its using a few older sounding words to set the scene.
It would be quiote a fun to see ‘older’ English in the game, though I know it’s notappropiate to regional setting… - But I would acceppt it as a convention, due to me not being able in any way to understand czech, or any of its predecessors… and I won’t expect anyone to go with old or middle German.
But, what I read in haste of this fread… with “old English” there would come a heap of different symbols for some spoken vowels and consonants. For instance the “th” has (had) different qualities than it has today: " Þ/þ " … or “Ð/ ð”…
Although I would kind of like to some old/ middle English in KC: D, I understand, it would be pretty hard to understand for non- as well as native speakers. 'tis not a question of being dumb, but also of readability of texts. Plus, Shakespearean English wasn’t even “accurate” back in his days. It is and was supposed to be kind of artifcial, or at least poetical. I won’t expect any harbour working mate to speak like “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day…?” - He would propably “go for the kill” right away… and for a drink.
Well, finally, thoughout the train of thoughts I feel like I am contented with WH taking modern language as well (for there they know, how it is to be spoken…), but maybe simply watch it closely to eliminate certain phrases and/or words, that are especialyl in use or have different meaning today. And I think most of ye would feel the same.
