My Feedback on the feel of Combat

Combat system
#1

Hi All,

I just wanted to throw out some feedback on the combat system. During my Beta play-through’s I really enjoyed the concept of combat in KDS. However, after seeing the E3 presentation I’d like to vocalize a few concerns.

My impression of combat from Beta and currently is that it feels too slow, not the pace of the fight mind you, but the animations themselves. When your character punches for instance, it seems at half speed. Let me explain, in a lot of martial arts training there’s quarter speed, half speed, three quarter speed, and full speed, they are exactly as how they sound. It seems in KDS the fights all take place at half speed (as though they were training instead of fighting). To sum up the first concern, combat animations feel too slow to seem real.

My second concern is probably more subjective and less tangible but the physical impact during a fight doesn’t seem to be there. The audio sounds very good, the animations while feeling slow, seem quality, but when you strike a character it just doesn’t feel as though there was an impact made. Now maybe part of that is the half speed animations, perhaps it goes back to my first point in that it doesn’t feel impactful because the attacks are slow and the responses, the jolts of the enemy if you will, also seem slow. Perhaps that doesn’t quite sync with the audio causing it all to look and feel somewhat uncomfortable. To sum up my second concern, I’d like fights to feel as though they had more of a physical impact when striking or being struck.

I know the game has a ways to go and polish passes are likely underway but I hope this feedback makes it’s way to the eyes of one of the devs and that it is taken into consideration, one way or the other.

Thank you for creating such an incredible game, I look forward to playing your final release!

All the best,
A.Locke

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#2

Agree. I made a similar topic about the combat, and mentioned how the slow animations combined with a slow stamina system makes the combat feel very bogged down. The enemies are also pretty tanky, taking more damage than they do in similar action games, making the fighting feel rather long and ineffective.

I think a few tweaks to the system would be good, and possibly difficulty settings which control the speed of the combat. It’s good, but I think it could be a bit better for its release.

#3

As I understand it’s slow so that the player gets a chance to react to the particular type of attack and doesn’t have to button mash. The combat is very different, but in my opinion it feels very satisfying.

This has crossed my mind as well and it would be pretty awesome! What a way to make every player comfortable with the speed of combat. The question is how hard would it be to implement, which I really have no idea of. Could be both simple or really hard I guess. Possibly the time required to calculate moves could be of issue. Perhaps someone from WH can chime in on this?

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#4

NPS’s combat reactions and overall “flow of combat” are based on his exp. level(and your own). For example if you fight some n00b on level 2, he will have hard time responding to your moves. But to have this in the game and another adjustable “combat speed” in the settings would be impossible to make work together.

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#5

There is one important note that I want to add, but which is hard to proof. However, the combat feels waaay faster and action oriented when you are actually playing it. While it might seem slow while watching, actually fighting is pretty exciting. And I am not saying this with my WHS glasses, but as the actual gamer I am/was. But still… of course it’s still work in progress.

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#6

I’ve noticed, when you’re playing on arena at the camp against opponent with easy/normal/hard opponent for 30 groschen they’re fighting as beasts(But the hardest guy is the real beast). :thinking: NPCs in the arena is much stronger, than the rest of the NPCs in the rest of the game world, cuz i’ve killed the whole bandit camp without almost getting hitting. But the archers from the top of the camp patted me notably. :wink:

P.S I think, it’s just motivation system for the NPCs at the arena. :thinking:

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#7

The combat has certainly improved in it’s movement, pacing and fluidity, but I’m in agreement in that it still appears to have a fair way to go in order to be fully polished. Luckily, we’ve still got circa 8 months till release :smile:

I know that the Stamina bar has been increased to exceed the Vitality / Health allocation, which is a good improvement IMO. Having those two measures value-locked, seemed pretty restrictive. The constant running away to regain stamina kind of breaks the overall flow of combat. Hopefully we see stamina become less of an issue, the more proficient and battle-fit we become.

It’s also worth keeping in mind that Tobi mentioned the enemies for the E3 build were beefed up to give testers and reviewers more opportunity for attack during combat trials. So again, the damage sponges of the E3 build are probably not an accurate reflection of enemy difficulty scaling for final release.

One thing that we didn’t see was the sneak kill mechanic. Even in situations where Henry was attacking a man from directly behind (albeit while not sneaking), but regardless the attacked man soldiered on almost like nothing happened. I wonder if when presented with those types of opportunities (an opponents unprotected back for example) whether or not the player will be presented with other specific attack options. Not necessarily insta-kill options, but certainly a heightened damage attack.

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#8

Yeah, certainly. I just feel they could have a higher tempo, either as the default or as a higher difficulty setting.

It should actually be quite simple to accomplish. One variable controls animation/attack speed, it is modified by difficulty and certain stats. You rig the system for a maximum speed which you’ve tested. At maximum speed, the game is at full combat speed, and may be too difficult to play. But that only occurs if you’re fighting a much stronger opponent, on the highest difficulty.

Everyone has made good points.

As Thorn says, the amount of backing off to regain stamina doesn’t work. That works for Dark Souls… because monsters attack so slowly and so infrequently, it’s basically turn-based. You attack a couple of times, then you back off as the monster performs a three hit combo–then by the time it has exposed itself again you have recovered enough stamina to hit it. Stamina is also your life line, allowing you to roll, attack, and block.
KCD is not designed for that combat flow, so a stamina system needs to take backstage away from the skill component.

And yeah, the E3 demonstration is not an accurate representation of the current state of the game. Still, I think it helps to illustrate a few elements that should be polished in these last 8 months.

Since all this is moddable, I’m not too worried. My main concern is giving the game its best possible outing, so that we can hope for sequels that improve it further.

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#9

It was always intended for stamina to be the life-line of combat in KCD too. Health and Stamina should be linked, but just not necessary locked. As a general rule of thumb, Henry should always have more stamina than he does health, unless of course his health is so diminished that the two are on par. I think that’s what we’re seeing with the E3 updated build.

As crazy as this sounds, a game like FIFA manages player stamina really well. Sprinting, tackling shooting etc, they have a direct stamina cost. You can exhaust yourself by running down your stamina bar, which will over the course of a match translate to a slight reduction in your total available stamina. To a point where by the end of a match you may have nothing left in the tank so to speak. Thus the need to manage and monitor player stamina accordingly, because with less available stamina, the lower their performance levels become, more wayward shots and bad passes, slow runs and of course increased chance of injury result.

My point being that I think stamina should remain the primary life-line of the combat system, but perhaps simply be managed in a more natural and effective manner.

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#10

I now know which mod I will install first :slight_smile: Realistic combat damage is my go-to in almost every game (fucking mandatory in skyrim), and it would be even better here :slight_smile: Aaaalso, while AI is quite a lot better when getting shot at with bow, it really should just realize that its best chance is to charge the archer and fuck him up asap…

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#11

Well, there’s intention, and there’s design. The game may’ve had the intention of emulating Dark Souls with the stamina, but the design has largely veered off in another direction. To course correct for a Dark Souls or Witcher style system would be… very hard at this point in development. It would be easier, and I think more effective for the game’s engagement, to instead reduce Stamina’s importance to the combat, and make it feel more authentic.

I would expect FIFA manages stamina very well, as it is an important point of a sports game that can go on for an extended period at maximum physical capacities. The difference with a fight, is often you aren’t spending energy, by watching and waiting (it is mentally tiring, though).

Your suggestion would fit excellently, and solve the issues I’m seeing, I believe.

Currently the stamina is very gamey and in the Dark Souls style, where you run out of energy to do anything very quickly. You’re basically playing as the Chosen Undead, who never suffers long-lasting fatigue, but has very limited lung capacity and so gets out of breath.
But with a FIFA style, you’re playing more of a long-game. You could just go crazy at the start of the fight, swing dozens of times in rapid succession… but that’s going to hurt you if the opponent gets through that unscathed. You have more stamina, stamina drains more slowly, but it recovers more slowly too. Rather than a penalty that ONLY appears when you run out of stamina, you get a little sloppier as you run lower of energy.

This would make stamina management important, but not obtrusive. Instead of stamina being the telemarketer that calls you and interrupts your game, constantly–it becomes the weasel gnawing on your leg. Rather than constant interruptions, a looming obstacle you build up yourself.

[quote=“Tsunamik, post:10, topic:33279”]
I now know which mod I will install first :slight_smile: Realistic combat damage is my go-to in almost every game (fucking mandatory in skyrim), and it would be even better here :slight_smile: Aaaalso, while AI is quite a lot better when getting shot at with bow, it really should just realize that its best chance is to charge the archer and fuck him up asap…[/quote]
Agreed! Not asking for KCD to be totally realistic, but I think the game is showing how much realism can increase engagement in a game. When KCD comes out, I’m going to spend time with the other modders working out a realism rebalance mod.

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#12

I do feel like the only true issue of combat is the stamina right now. I enjoy feel and look of it but needing to back away/run off for a few seconds inbetween every few exchanges breaks the flow awfully without really adding any kind of depth or difficulty.

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#13

Have you tried to fight with using strafe ? When you’re doing it, you’re not losing stamina,but your opponent yes(After missing attack). :smile:

#14

So, i’ve tested this thing(Motivation system)… I was wrong about it, but still, the opponents at the camp are more dangerous, than in the entire world.

P.S Sorry, i’m not that good in the filming, so the video is too long, but it shows everything:

  1. Opponents behaviour.
  2. Their movements and tactics. !regarding the bet. !
  3. Will they give up with a lack of stamina and retreat closer to the fence. ! regarding the bet. !
  4. Will they fight more actively or passively. ! regarding the bet. !
#15

Problem is that AI is not optimised in Beta, opponents outside camp arena don’t react properly in combat, so you can beat them quite easily.

#16

Yeah, i know, but they react randomly(I did some footage of this thing, but i’ve deleted them) in a case of loading saves. :thinking:

P.S I’ll try to check it out in the cumans camp(There 2 lads), that at the hills.

#17

Its hard to compared the old beta build with the E3 2017 build of the game by just watching the presentation. The game has changed much and Warhorse studios need to get rid of the old beta and upload the E3 2017 build of the game so that we can properly test and give feedback.

#18

They can’t. Just can’t. It’s big amount of work to do special build for bakers without some parts of E3 build. They can’t give us E3 build and tell " Don’t watch this cut-scene! Don’t use this weapon! Don’t walk behind this wall!" and etc. They need to optimise it for everyone.

P.S They’ve already tell us about it: Only release and nothing else. We need to focus on optimising and polishing, and other things, that will help us to finish the game sooner.

#19

Hi Tobi,

Thanks for the response here! You do make a very fair point, playing the beta, while the animations did feel a bit slow, combat absolutely did feel faster playing it than it did watching it (though in beta, to me, it did still altogether feel slow). So in regards to the E3 demo, I know what you’re talking about so I’ll take your word for it. And once again, I look forward to playing it at release!

Thanks again!

#20

I think animation should be improved, unfortunately developers think they are ok.
I disagree that audio sounds very good, in my opinion audio in combat is terrible and I hope it is only placeholder. When you hit scaled armour, it should not sound the same as plate armour. We need different sounds for hitting different body parts, when you hit helmet it should sound different than breastplate or leg armour. I think that overall sounds are too weak, it sounds like they were afraid of damaging the swords or armour when they were making them.

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