Open Letter to Warhorse Studios

Dear Warhorse Studios,

you have so far created a beautiful looking product, good job with that.
However, that is about everything that’s good about it. As you are well aware, it’s perfectly possible to achieve a high turnover based on graphics quality alone (for example Skyrim). Yet in the long run that won’t be enough to build up any kind of brand recognition other than: Kingdom Come, The game that looked good but was otherwise completely unremarkable.
I highly recommend you to consider the following points:

  1. Combat system

It seems you never had a finished concept of the combat system before development.
Why do you have 5 attack directions if they can all be blocked by a single button, without even aiming? I don’t know if you tried to imitate the Mount & Blade system, but the main difference there is that you actually have to aim your block in the same direction as the attack. Your system, as it is, is utterly pointless and just a cheap attempt to make the game look more complex than it really is.

Now you can either just hold that block button or mash that attack button. Since the block will be broken eventually, mashing the attack button is the one and only strategy needed in Kingdom Come.

Stamina? Yeah that stops the attack button mashing for a couple seconds. But your great AI you always talk about never makes use of this opportunity. So while the player leisurely regenerates his stamina out of the enemies reach, the enemy swings his weapon through the air or approaches the player at snail speed. Might as well have no stamina then.

Enemies not attacking bug? You got such a large team and this far into the development you couldn’t figure that one out?

Either way, the combat system is the most pressing problem for your upcoming game. You have all those videos theorizing about combat in armor and medieval fighting techniques, motioncapture and whatnot. Yet the actual combat system is simplistic at best, probably due to lack of an overall concept before development.

The other things aren’t that important but certainly need some fixing too:

  1. Saving / Loading the game

If you have so much trouble with loading the game because of your awesome “AI” system. Maybe you should rethink your approach. There are plenty of old games that had daily routines mapped out for all actors, they also somehow managed saving and loading. Again it seems like you have great artists, yet lack in the programming department. Your routines are probably too complicated to achieve things that could have been done in a more simple way.

  1. The pacing

It takes forever from the start of the game until the player gets to fight anything. You should know a game needs action, or otherwise I could just read a novel.

  1. Ingame Pricing

This one is really minor. But since you have done all this research, how about making the prices of things ingame realistic, i.e. a sword costs as much as a peasant would earn in a year and is not just the same price as 10 eggs.

As written above, the main issue is the combat system, though it certainly would do you good to fix the other issues as well.

Sincerely,

Somebody who hopes your game will be good.

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In this general period (and in the UK), the range of sword prices ran from £2000 to 1d (the valuation of the latter being a weapon used in a murder and described in the coroner’s notes as being “a rusty sword”) The context of pay has a low ranking soldier being paid at 3d per diem.

As for ingame pacing, there is plenty of opportunity for combat - 15 legitimate enemies outside the enemy camp, some of which can be fought within minutes of the game starting.

The combat system may not be perfect, but it seems far superior to any other system I’ve tried. There is scope for improvement but I don’t recognise many of your complaints.

6 Likes

I have to say this for the sake of objectors.

Frankly the combat is so slow and clunky it feels almost turn-based. Indeed probably the worst combat I’ve seen in any game so far. I guess that means even the Witcher where I never finished the first quest.
I’d much rather have Skyrims 2 button smash than this. Risen and M&B are the best I know, a bit more complex than Skyrim but even funnier, and believable enough. Certainly more believable than this one.

Realism, you’re never going to achieve that. You should go for a decent amount of credibility instead, that way we can still have fun while you probably achieve a more realistic result as well.

There is a difference between having a daily cycle and between simulation of daily life of each and every AI. This is what actually makes the game most interesting for me personally (together with the emphasis on historical accuracy).

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Last time I checked, they didn’t sell any rusty swords ingame.

The pacing is mostly determined by the guidance the player receives from the game and following that, it is beyond slow, despite the fact that you can just go and fight those guys if you do your own thing.

The combat system is in effect not any more complicated than any elder scrolls title. Directional attacking without directional blocking? Makes the whole thing pointless. Might as well only have 1 direction. Blocking itself? Pointless because it gets broken by repeated attacks. So in the end you only spam left mouse button to break blocks and sometimes back off a bit to catch breath, so effectively all you do is the same as in skyrim plus some more movement.

The whole combat system thing would have even been somewhat acceptable, if it wasn’t for all the videos made by Warhorse were they go on about how much research they did and all their great animations and their sophisticated combat system, just to be presented with this now. I don’t know if they are lying to the customers or to themselves.

Also the daily life simulation thing is all nice as it is… yet it seems to only cause more problems. The most pragmatic solution would be to just simplify this system to a level where it won’t cause any problems anymore with loading the game and instead use the time to focus on the actual gameplay.

1 Like

Sorry, but I don´t like your solution…

It wouldn´t be the game I have paid/backed for! :smile:

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There is directional blocking. The held guard is the same as the last set ‘attacking guard’. If you lack adequate skill you wont make a block from an off line guard, only from the one nearest the attack line. Feinted attacks move around a set block, and will only be blocked if you also move or reset the guard after the attack is moved. This is more similar to how you react to an actual cut or thrust than a M&B’s system.

While there isn’t a ‘rsuty sword’ in game, neither are swords really, really cheap. They seem to be valued at 100 or 70 Groschen, which is a fairly significant amount compared to the cost of food stuffs. Now I’d not argue that these are correct values for all items, but this isn’t how you characterise it either.

3 Likes

my biggest problem with this is game is the constant crashes and inability to load saved games. Sound can use a vast improvement as well. Voices should differ I would think and pressing E I should be able to intranet with people. I think damage system should also be explained better. I apologize for all the complaining but I want to game to be enjoyable so I’m just sharing my experience.

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There is whole topic about directional blocking, and you can even find there some answers from devs.

especially this

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People should remember that the game is still in beta - especially when talking about crashes or corrupted save games. As for AI, from the many videos and the game itself it’s evident that the game does NOT use traditional set-in-stone NPC routines. Saying that the programming department lacks skills is a pretty bold statement to make without any supporting evidence… I’d even say it’s borderline ignorance. However in my opinion choosing a somewhat unproven AI system for the game is really quite a gamble.

The combat system has some issues, but it was publicly known from the beginning that it will be based around stamina and I don’t think this is going to be changed. I’m not a huge fan of the system so far but frankly I don’t even care much for realism in combat, I just want it to be fun, so I leave this for other users to discuss. Lots of people say the combat in Skyrim was stupid hack’n’slash, but with a few mods and increased diffculty I found it very entertaining. Not saying Skyrim was perfect, but Bethesda made load of money selling it and that counts too.

I don’t see any issue with pacing, Warhorse that combat will not be a constant occurence in this game. On the other hand this places a lot of pressure on the quality of writing and non-combat gameplay. So far I’m mostly satisfied with the quests.

1 Like

Combat isn’t an incredibly rare thing either. Outside the immediate area of Pribyslavitz there are 15 ‘enemies’ you can engage, (a few of which respawn apparently), plus you can pick fights with at least three quest NPC who are theoretically neutral/on your side as legitimate quest paths.
Add the arena and clearing out Pribyslavitz and you have ample combat for a small slice of the game. IMO

Thank you for your letter @Cepheiden, this gives us a good view from the outside perspective. However, the combat system is deeper then you think. The direction does matter, you can parry faster if you are in the right direction, you are able to attack different zones if your enemy does have various armor there, and feints would be not possible without directional attack zones, you can fight around the block of your enemy and your opponent can do this too. The directions of attack are not pointless as you say, there is a deeper design behind it.

The enemies not attack bug does have the same problem as the AI system for now, complex AI. It is possible that the AI does need a lot of time to react because the full AI tree is acitvated. But we already have solutions for this problems, it is just a lot of work. We know how to engage this problems, that we have to find routines when wich AI tree hast to be turned off, and when to be turned on, to make standardisations in the AI. But before you can make this, you need to build up the framework of the AI system. You can´t cut down what is not there.
Therefor we don´t see any reason why we should change the approach here, the system is not failed, it is just not finished yet.

And about the parcing. Combat is a part of this game, but Kingdom Come Deliverance is not about combat, it is a story driven RPG, it is about making decisions. The only decision you make in a novel is to continue reading it.

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In what way are any of those believable? KC:D actually has realistic combat, unlike those games, which have choppy, and cartoony looking fights.

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I fully agree with the OP regarding the combat system. I would add on top, that it is not really suited for keyboard and mouse control and it is rather gamepad tailored. I must admit myself, that I am pretty disappointed by the current combat system - I was expecting something like Exanima (also in “beta status”) in the first person, but I’ve got clumsy, simplistic and not well controllable (by K&M) system.
And combat system is the most important feature of the game, so it should be well polished.

On the other hand:

  • I had no issue with save&load, so I do not share the concern.
  • the pace of the game is fine for me; while I also like games with a lot of action&combat more similar to movies than to written “novels”, it is far from realistic and not really suitable for this type of game. From Kingdom Come, I would expect and enjoy rather slow and careful pace of a written “novel”, than adrenaline-packed movie-like experience.
  • pricing should be realistic - agree with OP; I have not experienced any opportunity to buy or sell weapons, so I do not know…

Are you forgetting that this game is nearly a year from release?

Are you forgetting that this game is nearly a year from release?

No, I am not. I hope it will be well polished in final release. And I am raising my concerns, because I want to influence the devs in a positive way towards better combat system.

Not sure how many hours you’ve sunk into the beta, and I can tell that you’re new here, so welcome… but to make a comment like the above (in fact, to write an open letter in the tone and manner you have) tells me that your understanding of the systems and mechanics involved here are bordering on ignorance.

Constructive feedback and criticism is one thing, but to straight up shoot down all the hard work the devs and entire WH team have put in over the past 2-3 years is frankly just plain rude.

If you’re such the expert on AI, integrated combat systems, and games programming… then please feel free to constructively enlighten the team and all us onlookers.

I await your solutions with some eagerness.

6 Likes

Дураку полработы не показывают. Dunno how to say it in english right.

That is hard with Kickstarter.

This is what i got from google translate,

"Fool polraboty not show"
but I’m guessing it’s not even close to what you actually said.