Poll: Do you like large dungeon crawling and grinding levels?

#1

So I was playing a lot of Witcher 3 lately (surprisingly) and after one particular quest I started to wonder if people really like such type of quest, or if its just a cliche that we developers use because we think that you want it, but you dont. So I want o find out how it really is :slight_smile: Let me first explain why I personally play Witcher: I like storydriven games, the setting, the choices, interaction with characters. I like to explore the world and the story. And the Witcher allows me to do exactly this.

So yesterday I started to play the game and my plan was to explore some cities a little bit more, find the daughter of Red Baron and proceed with the main quest. But what I ended up doing was crawling in the darkness for more that 2 hours, because thats what one of the main quests (Wandering in the Dark) forced me to do. You are thrown into a extremely large underground maze and you need to hack through hordes of random enemies and bosses to the end, where there are couple of chests filled with some swag. I mean - it would be perfectly OK, if it lasted 30 minutes, because all the puzzles, the whole story told through this and all the loot would fit into much smaller, shorter and simpler dungeon. But instead it was extremely long and it took me the whole evening to get out. It felt little repetitive, I played such levels million times before in all the other RPGs, and it really felt like filler content.

But for some strange reason, and this is really interesting, I keep playing these levels and I tend to explore them as much possible and collect everything there is. It makes me nervous to leave part of the map covered with fog of war, and I think about all the loot that I left there, that could come handy later. Its like drug addiction or Pavlovian refex. But in the end I think its sad, that out of 50 hours I spent in a game, 25 are just fill in content. In some games even more. I would be quite OK with those unique 25 hours. I would enjoy the game better and I would maybe even finished more games to the end.

And let me tell you. I dont want to blame CD Projekt guys for this, its agreat game and I like it. But I think I know why we developers do this. We think, that bigger is better and that you actually require us to do this. But is that true? Witcher has probably 100+ hours of gameplay. I already spent 15 hours in it and I didn not even started. So is it really necessary to prolong it artificially with such generic stuff? Maybe I am too old, but I would like to finish the game and I dont have that much time to play it as before, so I want to cut the crap :slight_smile:

So I wonder, am I the one who is weird, because there is never enough dungeon crawling or do you think the same?

BTW you will hardly find anything like that in Deliverance, because even if we wanted, it would not be possible in our real world locations. No real dungeon is as big as videogame dungeon :slight_smile: There are gonna be Dungeons in KCD, but not that much :smile:

  • I love dungeon crawling, I dont care about the story or exploration, I want hacking, grinding and looting!
  • I think its filler content and a waste of time and would like games not to use it that much. Longer doesnt always mean better.
  • I like both. I dont think its waste of time - its fun!

0 voters

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12 Likes
Dungeons and NO dragons
#2

I think dungeons are interesting in many ways.

Firstly dungeons are so popular because of developers. You have strict borders for your level and this forces the player into a frame where a developer can write a plot. This was necessary in old computer games where open world was not possible and of course pen & paper games, where it is easier to explain a dark tunnel than a crowded city.
And there is the other way around, the player. A dungeon always have the mood of an adventure, because you can not see what hides behind the next corner, you expore some place not everyone can visit. Dungeons are hidden places, a kind of secret. They have the mood of exploring and you can see this is true because of urbex, urban exploring where people visit old hospitals, bunkers and houses where you have the same feeling of loneliness and danger. I think this is similar.

So dungeons are perfect for beeing easy to make and to create a dense atmosphere.
But what always disturb me is the non logical structure of gaming dungeons. Why would someone build something like this? Why is it full of creatures waiting for the player? Why is there all the loot? This is immersion breaking stuff, if you like realism. So I am all agog with curiosity how you at warhorse will solve this problem. I want to see smaller and more logical structured dungeons.

13 Likes
#3

Started to play Witcher 3 too (surprisingly), I did not get to this point yet.

But what you described is really kinda classic thing for many games. And from what I heard from others there is actually no one (or just very little players) who does really enjoy long doungeon creeping. But there is a lot of guys (into some extent even me) who, just like you, are driven by that force, wanting to explore everything and fearing to lose valuable loot.

I know a few people who collected every collectable item in Assassins Creed to get those petty achivements. And when I asked them whether they enjoyed it, most answers were “It was pain in the ass”.

Prsonaly I do not like it, but when it is not something crazy which requires hundreds spells and potions I will get into it and kill every little goblin and killer rabbit there is.
But even this has its limits when I say “fuck it” and just go for the main quest.

Although I do acknowledge the value of long creeping and fighting. Because it gives you feeling that you earned the reward. (Similar to killing hard bosses)

1 Like
#5
#6

I think if you can make the dungeons interesting, non repetitive and make them actually rewarding then i wouldn’t mind having them. I think you should be careful of cutting content though because i personally find that longer is a lot of the time better.

8 Likes
#7

I don’t like dungeon crawls at all. I don’t mind short ones, especially if the devs make them more interesting with puzzles etc., but I’d much rather spend my time exploring cities and landscapes.

4 Likes
#8

The only dungeons I can see the point in this game will be mines and some smaller, realistic ones for exploration… I don’t care for the long dungeuns etc have enough of that in other games allready(like Skyrim, 50% of the story is in dungeons…)

So yeah, short ones that includes some stuff like Mining, exploration could be good, but don’t want to have much quests, large ones etc. I will rather the dev’s to spend time on cities, landscapes etc etc instead of large dungeons…

7 Likes
#9

In other open world games such as Fallout or Skyrim, you can rush the main campaign or grind to max level first if you prefer that, or a mix of both.

I wouldnt mind progression, but it would be great if grinding to max level is not mandatory

#10

Huh. I did not play Witcher 3 yet apart from tutorial (waiting for new GPU) but I am surprised there is any filler in it. I guess that was unavoidable. At least they get a bit more “pass” since Witcher takes place in nonreal world location.
That said, I am kinda undecided. I have enjoyed some long dungeons in some games, but then I hated some as well (Risen / Gothic, ugh). Exploring landscapes, following well written story…I suppose these are more enjoyable in general for me, but dungeons can be made interesting too.
But yeah I am not fussed about lack of long dungeons in KCD. Just build it however you want. Less filler, the better…as long as there is meaningful content to replace it.

BTW from the reviews and impressions I read, Witcher 3 should be pretty low on filler - most sidequests should be much better than your Dragon Age Inquisition garden variety “bring 10 shards” fetch quests. Is that so ?

#11

If the dungeons are meant to tell a story (e.g. searching for a bandit who’s talking with you while fighting your way through the dungeon) then I’d be fine with it no matter how long it is. However I don’t like it if you have to slay down massive amounts of monsters and then only the last part of the dungeon is actually interesting and memorable.

9 Likes
#12

There are actually two really different things in large dungeons - Exploration and combat.

I do really love exploration, especially when the dungeon is varied enough - A good example of that is IMO Pillars of Eternity with it’s map design.
The thing about exploration is that it’s kind of optional to the player. A player can choose to spend a long time looking at all the details in the dungeon, but if he wants to progress he has to fight. Which is not the best when the player gets bored of the combat mechanics or if there are more interesting things to do.

3 Likes
#13

I love dungeons, but not as a forced grinding mechanic.

I really cannot stand it when I play a game and they force me to go through a long series of tunnels and fight more enemies then I would see in average encounter on the surface.

It becomes especially annoying when there is more loot in an abandoned mineshaft then in the mansion of the richest NPC in any given town.

I want to see dungeons, I use them to grind in every RPG I have ever played, but I do not like being forced by the story line (or 90% of side quests (TES)) to venture into a dungeon to retrieve crap like an errand boy.

Its become an RPG essential experience, one I personally will not be upset if it is down played or not even present.

5 Likes
#14

I do love dungeons as well as any unexpected encounters like hidden places etc.
When I startet playing Diablo 3, I was busy with finding anything to possibly be found. All random dungeons, books, mini quests and easter eggs. I love exploring games whenever possible. Sometimes this kills you because you left the area for your specific level (e.g. Sacred) or you get completly lost (Gothic 2). But on the other hand you may find a treasure or simply beautiful places.
I guess the best dungeons I’ve explored so far are the Dwemer Ruins in Morrowind and Skyrim. Because they contained a whole new world inside. Different architecture, different enemies, different sounds and rich loot! If you don’t explore them, you will miss out something ;o)

#15

There is a reason why I love story-driven games… :wink:

I don’t like dungeon crawling that much, at least not in “action” games with real-time combat. Dungeon crawling is only fun if the combat system is really, really solid and fun in itself in every encounter. More tactical games are imo better suited for that kind of experience.

@Hellboy
Can we have children now? Witcher 3 has them… :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes
#16

There is a certain universal rule that really does apply and count everywhere:
“Too much of everything does no good.” The universally best things are usually the best because they manage to strike a sort of balance.

I haven’t played the new Witcher yet and I don’t expect to get to it before the current exam time is over for me (Sigh! Why do they have to release a game like this at this kind of time?! Goddamit!), but I at least took a brief look at the mentioned part on YouTube, since this made me curious…

  1. I think that the worst problem of that Wandering in the Dark part is really the grinding in the “main combat challenges” - the numerous parts where you just have to keep on slashing through boring and repetitive waves of generic minor enemies to be able to get back to the major problem (like that certain boss character at the end). If they rather did cut the crap about opening so many portals and trying to bore Geralt (and the player) to the death with loads of weak cannon fodder and instead created some kind of shorter and more focused duel combat (well, a duel with support, to be precise), the whole thing would IMHO be much more interesting. I fondly remember the duels from the previous Witcher games…
    The similar thing goes to that previous, rather static stage with magic frost shield and, again, lots of repetitive portal spawn.
    (I’m glad to believe we will have no reason to see this in KCD… :wink: )

  2. The dungeon itself was rather large, but I wouldn’t necessarily view that as a downside here- this all goes down to what is its purpose. If you want to design a random natural cave sheltering a bunch of bandits, it doesn’t have to be a huge maze that you could explore for hours. Equally, if you want to make abandoned ruins of an ancient city built in a cave system, it definitely shouldn’t be just a straightforward set of tight corridors with an occasional fork half obstructed by a cave-in. Don’t overdo it, but don’t scamp it either.
    It should appear a feel like what it is supposed to be.

The cave in this case was designed relatively fine, although the first part in particular did seem to have a bit too many long sideways that distracted you from following the main quest (which is what you pretty much should be doing here). But also that player was one of those loot 'hos who need to pick up every freaking mushroom… even while someone nearby is screaming for help. :smiley:

  1. Which leads to the second possible core problem… why do we explore?
  • for the experience itself, to enjoy discovering interesting places
    (Dat now-legendary rose cave in W2!)
  • to seek and find possible interesting loot

The loot point in particular is heavily dependent on the overall game design.
If after a time you begin to understand that every single diversion leads to lots of special loot, you just give up on following the storyline and keep on running around exploring everything kinda automatically. Especially if the game shows a tendency to close certain areas for good after you pass through and you won’t be abe to return and finish exploring them when the storyline comes to a pause later (I personally hate that!).

Witcher is one of the games where all the interactive items are somehow useful and the inventory seems almost bottomless, which encourages loot 'hoing and mentally pushes the player to explore and loot EVERYTHING…
Adding in lots of absolutely useless garbage “items” to all the containers like the Dragon Age series started to do since DA2 is not a solution either (Gawd I hate this utterly pointless kind of loot! One of the things that almost killed that series for me… it feels like a mockery).

One of the things that I like about the Elder Scrolls series is that the environment is filled with plethora of lootable stuff, but most of it is really just regular items and interactive decoration (mugs, brooms, …) - but it does have a purpose in there, as a part of the environment. So there is lots of stuff to take everywhere, but not really all of it is necessary, or even worth the effort.
This kinda teaches you to pick and sort your loot and encourages a more natural gameplay of “don’t waste your time just trying to search everything, just keep going and find out and get stuff simply as you go”.
Since KCD so far appears to follow the TES way of placing interactive items physically into the world rather than keeping them hidden in containers and letting players to just go on a container hunting/looting streak, I hope that this would be the way to go in KCD too.

As for the space of the environmental areas… do them as you want them to be.
Preferably spacious enough to feel authentic and interesting, but not tedious to explore. This is no Diablo after all…

Seconded!

#17

Haha, I just finished that specific dungeon quest today, and I have to say I got very bored with it. Definitely my worst Witcher experience thus far. The combat is too simple and boring (slash, jump away, slash, jump away, slash…) to make any kind of dungeon styled missions interesting.

#18

i often find i get annoyed with these sort of quests too .

be some silly quest like collect the golden claw from the evil darkened cave of doom and my reaction to that quest log is normally "ohh for fuck sake " id much rather a deep detailed interesting story then some long ass boring one with a few exciting parts .

one particular quest springs to mind in skyrim for the mages guild i believe . where you have to collect something from a dwarven ruin and it takes like 2 hours to do and i just found it so boring that on my second play though i missed off the mages guild all together as i just couldnt be bothered with that quest ,

1 Like
#19

I think that dungeon crawlers have its place, but they also need to be proper length. Which curiously isn’t you exit long before it starts to get tedious, but right after it starts to get tedious. It should get confusing, you should start feeling bit lost, but it shouldn’t be stretched for too long. Just enough to experience relief when everything is cleared.

1 Like
#20

Within reason… but yea agree with your point on a whole. As long as the length isn’t bloated with filler for the sake of perceived additional hours. Forced filler and grinding is a quick way to boredom in large scale RPG’s. When I level grind, I want to do so on my own free will :smile:

1 Like
#21

Agree with you completely it needs to be reasonable and not just filler content. But i like games with hours and hours of content in them. 30 hours is what Warhorse has said will be the total content. Which i think is a reasonable amount. I dislike Skyrims method of just throwing in generic re-used quests and then saying “we have an endless amount of guests”.

1 Like
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