Something actually amazing (Archery)

Jesus H Christ, I’ve been talking about this the past fucking god knows how many posts.

YOU DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The momentum imparted by a bullet is near to fucking zero for all accounts and purposes. It’s made for penetrating a target and causing damage, it has no fucking power to knock someone over or rock his head to hard his brain is gonna get damaged.

If you can’t wrap your head around this drive to your nearest high school and ask the physics teacher to run at you at at 13 MpH and then jump and hit you fist first in the face.

You survived that? Good, know that’s about three times punch in the face you’d get from a non penetrative 9mm. Taking in account the sloping visor which dents a bit and spreads the force and a helmet with liner you’d probably barely notice your head going back a bit if the helmet stops a 9mm.

I said it as a sidenote when referring to medieval craftsmanship, I cited a guy who is leading expert in his field but you got all anal about it first and then made a claim that even if a helmet stopped a 9mm the impact force would kill you.

If you believe that well then okay, your loss.

@TobiTobsen

I think this thread has outlived it’s usefulness, could you close it or crumple and throw it in the trash bin? Don’t throw it to fast though, you might end up blowing out a wall in the office.

I never said a bullet knocks someone

over quit putting words in my mouth. I said that even if it didn’t go all the way through the helmet it could crack the wearers skull and that could cause internal bleeding.

When did i get anal about it? I was being nothing but polite i was just skeptical about it. But apparently if somone disagrees with you they’re “anal”

I’ll leave some examples of you being salty though.

Really you get hit by someone at 1200 feet per second in rugby and football lol thats pretty entertaining.

Right i believe that it still would kill the wearer but we have no way of testing either of our points. I tried to change the subject several times but you kept going back to it so if anyones responsible for this thread being derailed its you.

So again compound bow vs plate what do you guys think?

You said the shock would still kill the guy wearing it. If a bullet can barely cause a person to be moved than how would you imagine it being possible to cause a concussion or even lethal brain damage?

You’ve been putting words in my mouth since this debate started, changing subject and so on. Honestly I am already tired due to a shitty week, that fact that you misinterpreted most of what I am saying (I presume this is the case) pisses me off a little. Maybe it’s my fault that I didn’t explain it well enough.

E = 0.5mv^2

A light linebacker could weigh in at around 80 kgs
A 9mm bullet weighs around 7,5 grams
Therefore the velocity of the footballer or rugby players doesn’t need to be as high to have the same kinetic energy.

Now we were talking about brain damage from shock

If it doesn’t go through the helmet it’s still possible linear brain acceleration could kill the person.

This mechanism is the same as that of a concussion.

Tomorrow i’ll get into the physics of it. A car crash or a boxers punch can exert enough force on the head to snap it back like the picture and cause a concussion (or worse) a 7.5 gram bullet traveling at 390 m/s cannot.

I said it could. I think it could crack the persons skull which could then cause bleeding in the brain and a host of other problems

When provide examples?

Yes ive tried to end this debate many times by bring up archery but you keep bring it back to this.

So?! Nuff said?! Time to close that topic? :slight_smile:

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So again compound bow vs plate what do you guys think?

Do you mean, modern compound bows with cams?
Well, I only shot once those in my life, and even though I “always” had, hm, let’s say historical bows, I admit I found them freakingly awesome. About their capability, on the other hand, I am not sure. I read some hunters who use bows state that such a thing with a hunting arrowhead can go (edit: shoot. It would look silly if the hunters would throw the bow through the poor animal…) through a deer or break the spine of a wild boar, but I am sceptical as long as I see some valid proof.
Therefore I could give a better judgement about historical bows, but just to be safe, I wouldn’t stand in front of such a thing in a cuirass. :smiley:

By the way, these questions could be maybe partially answered by the help of finite element analysis softwares. Years ago I COUGH-COUGH bought ANSYS, but I never really got around to actually learn how to use it, even though it could get handy - still, I remember perfectly good that it had a simulation of of a modern bullet (lead with steel jacket) penetrating and deforming a - probably - steel plate.
Many variables can’t be modeled too well in terms of foreshadowing, of course, like the inhomogenities of the wooden shaft, the non-perfect arrival of the arrow, the non-perfect axis of the arrow shaft, the properties of the historical steel plate material and whatnot; so testing IRL would be still pretty much preferable. The good thing about FEM would be on the other hand that it would be

  • repeatable in terms of total control over the parameters and
  • the ability to change every parameter differently and in arbitrary resolution.

Apart for the exact question, I seriously think that neither “side” (The [generic historical bow] penetrated the [generic historical armor] / it did not) is absolutely right. The average thing that happened was probably “around inbetween.” People wouldn’t use armors, it it were ineffective, and so is the thing with bows.
So, probably a pack of guys charged some archers. The archers shot a volley. Most of the arrows fell to the ground without harming anyone, some of them got catched by shields, a few of them bounced off of the armors and a few of them hit some guys in the arm, or in the foot. They scream, call an ambulance, the rest go on, another volley, oops, some guy got hit in the neck, bad luck, an other guy got an arrow in the chestplate, it stuck in there, but the armor and the gambeson in the end prevented any kind of serious damage to the wearer. Two of the guys now cover behind their shields and watch in shock the third guy bleeding out of his neck.
Et cetera.
In a way, it is kind of similar question to the good ol’ “longsword versus katana.” Reality is usually complex, unpredictable and dirty, but often restrains himself from the clean extremities.

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It is common to end up with fractured/broken ribs in case of a bullet hitting body armor that doesn’t have a proper plate inserted, even if the bullet doesn’t penetrate at all. So yes, it is easy to imagine that the bullet would dent a helmet in a way that would crack a skull, even if the bullet wouldn’t penetrate.

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I found a video to try to show the penetrating power of compounds.


Heres a steel door being penetrated.

Heres another video where the compound is penetrating steel drums.

This video shows broad heads going through a car door like its made of cheese.

Of course this would all depend on the draw weight of the bow. Im guessing a 110 lb war bow would be the equivalent in power to about a 70-80 lb compound maybe less.

That is true but if a bullet is stopped by the metal hard layer of a helmet than it won’t cause the skull to crack. Even if the bullet dents or stretches the steel to the maximum of what it’s tensile strength allows without breaking it still would not reach the skull.

My reasoning is that if the bullet doesn’t penetrate the metal it won’t hit the brain. If the bullet dents the metal to the maximum extent possible without breaking it would still not touch the skull making it unable to crack up the skull AND the bullet weighing in at 7.5 grams traveling at a maximum velocity of 390 m/s is not able to accelerate the head weighing let’s say 3.6 kg’s fast enough to exert 100 G’s on it so it won’t even cause a concussion let alone cause a brain hemorrhage.

That’s the essence of this whole debate. I don’t see any other way the impact of a bullet can kill you if the hard layer stops it.

That’s because I don’t want anyone to be under the impression that the impact force of a non penetrative 9mm round is enough to kill someone due to brain damage.

Well you said it yourself if it doesn’t have proper plate inserted. The denting in this helmet wouldn’t be significant enough to reach the skull. It would break and let the bullet pass before it would dent in enough for it to crush a vital spot.

Here is a video of a wz. 50 being shot at with various rounds. It’s only 1.4mm of modern steel and it is not nearly as sloped as the visor of the other helmet thus making that an even more resistant target. Anyways what I want you to look at is how little of a dent the 9mm leaves on such a thin piece of steel. Perhaps equally as important as the knock back by the 9mm, considering they have a loose head with little weight and nothing below the neck the knock back is almost insignificant.

PS, here is the “padding” on the inside of the helmet in the video and that inside an American M1 helmet.

People in those helmets survived the impact of handgun rounds with “Padding” consisting of a leather suspension system. Compare that to the liner inside a medieval helmet.

It wouldn’t have to penetrate all the way to crack the skull. If the bullet made a large enough dent that made the helmet cave in towards the skull it could fracture.

Bullet proof vests stop the bullet from ever touching the person yet it can easily crack your ribs or cause other damage.

Yes modern steel that would have been much higher quality than that helmet of yours.

Um what? Steel bends its completely possible for the dent to reach the skull. Unless this helmet was made with shit steel with a lot of impurities in it. Like i said this argument is pointless we have no way of testing this. Ill buy a .22 not doing shit against this helmet but you would have to show me physical evidence that this would stop a 9mm.

Also you keep saying knock back. I never once said a bullet knocks someone back stop making up things i said please.

I would like to see that same helmet test with rifles and assault rifles, these days you rarely shoot with pistol body armored guys.

The U.S armys combat helmet can stop a .762 from killing the man wearing the helmet. I know that the standard police body armor can only stop up to a 9 mm in the U.S. .762 shears through it like its made of tin foil. Most body armors stop glancing blows and smaller arms fire unless you have the plates body armor without plates can only stop up to a 9 mm.

I like rocks. Rocks will without a doubt be my primary weapon in this game. Boulder chucker.

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Oh, yes. :slight_smile: I also loved to shoot at an old, rusty metal barrel with a simple, 40-pounder composite-replica bow. When I (rarely!) hit it in right angle, it penetrated the material, else it bounced off while it threw sparkles everywhere like a christmas sparkler. :smile:
The problem is still (especially because in my opinion the “reality” would lie probably in the middle, in between the “it goes through” and “it does not”) that probably a very, very little difference in the “measuring parameters” would result in a pretty different outcome. This is why I am cautious of drawing conclusions about - although very interesting - examples. I have seen my old, old and deformed children’s bow (holy sh*t, now that I think about it, it is 14 years old… some more years, and my bow will be able to legally vote. They grow up so fast! :’) ) do frightening things with a bouncing arrow, and I also saw my heavy bow fail miserably against some paper pellet and cardboard. (Now that I think about it, maybe I have read somewhere about chinese paper armour.)
To illustrate this, behold my breathtaking skills in Paint. Yes, I used Comic Sans on purpose.

In the end, true testing would be required, with a historically accurate bow against historically accurate armor setups (so with ballistic gel or something behind it!), other armor pieces and padding if it were the thing, and shooting, and shooting, and shooting again until we have statistically acceptable measurement.
And that would be one bow with one kind of arrow against one armor setup - let’s say from multiple distances, and that would represent the given era rather good - or not.
…and that would still be direct shots against openly present armor, so we couldn’t go into details about battles: So we don’t count that many people wore different armor pieces protecting different percentages of the body with different efficiency, might had shields, faced against volleys and so on.
But…! That would be a start. :smiley:
Sadly, there are multiple, multiple tests on the internet, but almost none achieves acceptable historical accuracy on both sides, reproducible circumstances, good resources and in the end a documentation one can safely work with. But that’s pretty understandable, since that would require serious time and money, and,like I said, the results would be partial compared to the whole question.
I’ll also take a chance to say that it is kind of easy to prove either point by just minor adjustation of the parameters. It’s the typical case of the “If I want it, she’s pregnant, if I want otherwise, at the same time she is not”.

In my opinion, either scenario is plausible, but looking at the big picture, men of the era were probably had - if not financially, but - access to armours that offered a reasonable protection against most of the threats on the battlefield. Not every, sure. But when the guy is close enough to shoot him in the breastplate, he is probably also close enough to shoot him in the face. :smiley:
All in all, it was probably somewhat like a car of today. They have seatbelts and air bags, crumple zones, so you have a faaar greater chance to survive an accident than 50 years before (so without armor) - but you are still perfectly able to kill yourself with it regardless.

That’s what I have been saying five times over and over again in the past few posts. You literally ignore what you just quoted yourself. Read it again or put it in google translate if you have trouble reading English before you reply.

Key words are: Flexural strength/ and maximum dent size.

It would have a little more slag in it but that would probably be compensated by the extreme slope, thickness and heat treatment.

You didn’t read what I said, read it again.

keywords are: Brain acceleration, Concussion, G Force

If the force isn’t enough to cause a concussion than it is nowhere near enough to cause a brain to hemorrhage from smashing against the inside of the skull.

At the eye it would be the closest. I reckon that would be 2-2.5 inches or 5-6.35 cm.
Can steel bend/be dented that far inwards by the force of a bullet, probably not.
Could steel even bend/be dented in that far without breaking? Certainly not.

Alan Williams get’s reasonable close. However the bow he used seems a little underpowered, the sample size and breastplate tested aren’t all that accurate either. I haven’t found anything that’s much better though.

Thankfully Mathias Goll has breathed some fresh air in the study of armor recently. An extremely interesting read if your up for it.

http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/17203/

No you haven’t been saying that.

I never said it would cause the brain to smack around inside the skull. I said it could fracture the skull which then could cause bleeding inside the brain and perhaps knock the person out.

You have anything to back that up?

Again you have anything to back that up? Depending on the quality steel is extremely flexible. But this helmet must be pretty shitty quality steel so in that case i have no doubt that the bullet would go through. The fact that simply fire arms could go through plate in some cases makes me doubt that a modern fire arm couldn’t. The brown bess musket was only 1000 fps and the 9 mm is around 1200. Ill say this again ill accept a .22 not penetrating but i wont accept a 9mm. 9mm really aren’t even that small so i dont know why people always use them as examples as a weak round.

actually its not, the heart is. the heart is protected by the ribs then the lungs and all the filler tissue, and in the back its still defended by the ribs, and the back muscle. the brain isnt as protected as you think, and is actually in a very vulnerable position. the human skull has its strong points like the forehead, which is, at least to my knowledge, the hardest bone in the body. However, the back and sides of the head are very weak and and even through your glorious superior plate armor, would get severely damaged, and kill you either with shock or hemorrhaging.