@MadSmejki
I have just read the AMA on Reddit. And i have a request to the Warhorse studios: Please do not end your story with the battle of Grunwald.
Should you be financially successful. Please continue on with this saga to at least the death of Jan Žižka. In worst case i would say skip this battle but portray the fight of the Hussites against the crusaders. Should it be even more financially successful, then portray the fourth crusade and the support of the polish nobles for the Hussites and the persona of Sigismund Korybut and Prokop Veliký.
To all who have read my previous post:
Next Sunday i will post the part of my elaboration, where the participating armies are depicted and the battle itself. Naturally with the main emphasis on the czechian forces, position and actions. But because of the additonal required information, i have to split this post, perhaps into two parts. So it could be that i have to post the second part, a week later.
So Grunwald is in 1410 and according to the Kickstarter page the story is set in 1403. From the amount of Teutons in the trailers I first assumed that Grunwald was in act one because why else would they have so much content for it already. But now I realized the first act probably won’t cover 7 years but if the Game where to go at that speed their would be time enough for Hussite Wars. From what I have read so far though I don’t think that’s the plan. Maybe the Henry storyline ends with Grunwald and a new Trilogy will be started for the Hussite Wars. Personally I think it’s better if they take there time to tell the story and don’t rush from one action to the next.
I live in Vienna where the ‘German Order’ (successor organization of Teutonic Knights) has there Head quarters. Obviously I can’t speak for all Austrians/Germans but I can imagine that south Germans wouldn’t identify that much with the Teutons because there Prussians. Everyone not very religious probably won’t sympathize with them because there Crusaders. Protestants might see them as a catholic evil. And of course the Hole ‘Ostkolonisation’ issue connects them to the Nazis making them suspicious to all who aren’t either Nationalists or extremely Conservative. Personally I like that the Teutons are being represented (but I choose to play Lithuanians in every game) and I can imagine that just acknowledging a German present will be more than enough for most Germans.
@THIOMAY
I agree and hope that your previous post it true.
I have watched the Kickstarter ‘trailer’ several times, but i did not really paid attention to the battlefield, because i looked more at other things in the ‘trailer’. Therefore i never assumed that Grunwald would be in any of the three Acts. Only after i heard it from MadSmejki, i took a closer look, at the banners and knights.
Under ‘my terms’ can Warhorse make at least 9 Acts out of this (i will buy them all), naturally only under the condition that KCD is financially successful. I always hope that very few people identify with the Teutonic Knights, like with the ones from 1932 - 1945, because they both were murderers, even of Women and Children.
Their cruelty (Teutonic Order) exceed anything this region had known before (ok Mongols were also not funny), and that is not only against pagans but also catholics.
Against them were the Vikings (Norsemen) ‘ChorKnaben’ with a lot of Humor and they were even good guests, besides the Ax in ones Head. But ok who is perfect anyway?
There have been Grandmasters of the Teutonic Knights who wanted to change this, but they have been killed or chased away. Nowadays they seem to be a peaceful organisation, but it took at least three major wars, two hundred years and a lot of blood to achieve this.
And through their victories, more than any other Knights Order, they have become a synonym to a nearly invincible armored death machine. Admired and feared at the same time, by their friends and enemies. That is the reason why the battle of Grunwald has become such an strong national pride for the polish people.
Perhaps even more than ‘Schlacht am Kahlenberg’.
But in the expension of the Teutonic campaign for Medieval 2: Total War, the Teutonic Order and Lithuania are the best factions.
In a way you are right, but this is not so important directly for the bohemian history and kingdom. It is just only the beginning. It is just the event that has foreshadowed the coming of the larger events for the bohemian history.
Well, they said that the plan is to make a trilogy if the game is succesful. KC: D (act 1+2+3) as one part and other two games. And the other 2 games should be about Hussite wars, they have chosen this particular time in history also because of this. So I’m quite convinced that they aim for exactly what you want them to.
from what D.V.-Hellboy says in the most recent video (in Czech), the Act 1 will probably cover a span of about half year, in 1403, concluding with the liberation of Wenzel der Faule. The battle of Grunwald is part of the planned storyline (based on Reddit “Ask me anything” answers from D.V.) but it happens 7 years later - so my guess is that it will be in the Act 3, on a separate map. (Whereas acts 1 and 2 should have interconnected maps because map of act 2 is intended as add-on to the map from act 1, with new quests taking place in both). It is nearly certain there won’t be Hussite wars in the Kingdom Come, but if the trilogy sells well there should be strong interest in continuing with a Hussite-centered sequel (after the act 3) - a new game.
"...all acts have the same lead character, take place about the same time, in places that are not too far from each other."
My understanding is that all three acts take place in Bohemia and at the end of the main questline there will be the battle of Grunwald on a different smaller map.
from reddit AMA:
"There will be a smaller map in Act I where part of the story wil take place and its in one of those other countries. Part of Act III takes place outside Bohemia as well."
I would refrain from trying to depict the Order in such a black and white colours. Order’s brothers were indeed Crusaders and their methods of Christianisation were quite disturbing but this was quite common at that time and none contemporary observers would consider them especially cruel. It was a great effort of Jogailo to actually create support for his attempts at liberating parts of Lithuania among Polish nobles. This is considered one early and very successful propaganda campaign in history. Prior to it holy knights of Teutonic Order were revered among Polish knights for their ‘efforts of spreading the faith’.
Worth mentioning is also that while for sure Chechs were present on both sides of conflict at least later at the siege of Malbork ( they offered to switch sides and open gates to Poles but the offer was turnt down ) it is then also possible that there were also Chechs on Order’s side at Grunwald.
@COBRAM
To the first question: To ask a person if he is a historian, is good, but not specific enough.
An expert and a Ph.D. in ancient history of Mesoamerica with specialisation in the Ōlmēcah culture. Knows as much on the central european medieval history as a tailor about mending shoes. Pretty nothing. But the true answer on both counts is: NO. But i have friends, which have studied Mesoamerican History.
I have studied in a university for a certain amount of time (changed latter the direction of my study) japanese language and history. Because of japanese sword fighting, but it doesn’t provide you with a job that can sustain you, at least i thought so. (And that does not make me an expert for the history of central europe.)
To ask for sources for the Battle, is a very good trait. This are my sources:
Historiae Polonicae, Banderia Prutenorum by Polish historian Jan Długosz. (can be found online with translations). I use the translations, because my latin is to weak.
Printed books from modern authors in my possession as sources:
Used very very often by others:
Stephen Tarnbull (2003), Tannenberg 1410: Disaster for the Teutonic Knights, Campaign Series. I love the Osprey series, because they are good as a very small summary (sometimes) and provide you with the necessary knowledge and sources. The other books about the Teutonic Knight are also ok from this series. I share also some of his viewpoint of the battle. But the funny thing is he is used very often by others. But not on the count of the Lithuanian “retreat”. I have learned that the Lithuanians retreated and as Jan Długosz stated, only the polish knights won the battle. (Learned not in Poland!!!)
And the theory that they have been rallied, does not make any sense. I belive in the maneuver, and thankfully it has been confirmed (at least for me) by the discovery of the ‘warning’ letter.
Eric Christiansen (1998) The Northern Crusades: Second Edition
Wiliam Urban (2005) (Love his books about the Teutonic Knight and the Baltic Crusades)
Tannenberg and After: Lithuania, Poland and the Teutonic Order in Search of Immortality (Revised ed.)
About Poland i recommend as a book to read:
Davies, Norman (2005), God’s Playground. A History of Poland. The Origins to 1795 I (Revised ed.), Oxford University Press
A very good book (but not much about the battle), most because it confirmed my thoughts.
Ohh no. Confirmation bias.
The polish books about it, i have somewhere in my basement and honestly i don’t remember who wrote them, and what someone wrote. I prefer nowadays history view from the neutral side.
But the next book (despite its bias) that i intend to read about this event is:
Jučas, Mečislovas (2009), The Battle of Grünwald, Vilnius: National Museum Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania,
@FESTINE
As far as i know the siege was lifted in 19.09.1410 before any reinforcements arrived.
The only count to my knowledge, where the Bohemian and Moravian ‘Söldner’, have sold for 190 000 Hungarian florins Malbork / Marienburg, Tczew / Dirschau and Iława / Eylau to poland was in the Thirteen Years’War in the year 1457. And Marienburg Castle was then defended by Olrich Cervinka (czechian) for the polish king against the Teutonic Knights (Moravian mercenaries).
But also i think i have read on many counts, that way before Jogaila the polish knights complained to the Pope about the murderous behavior towards the Baltic Prussians / Pruzzen. And in Jogailos times the Baltic Prussians played no role anymore. In the complains, the polish knights stated, that on one day they convert the Prussians to catholicism and on other day they were all murdered by the Teutonic Knights.
But i have to look into this to verify, where i have read all the counts and what is its sources and what it exactly said.
But the frequent revolts against the Order speak for them self. Where the prussians and poles were killed, germans from the HRE were settled, like in Gdansk / Danzig.
But the polish knights were also no angels, presumably they have killed many many Yotvingians.
But back to the ‘very successful propaganda’ is hard to imagine that it was so successful, if Poland-Lithuania had to hire a lot of mercenaries. The Teutonic Knights had free support from all over the place, like Brandenburgia, Pommern, Hungary and yes even Bohemia (but few). Jan Długosz states that one czech knight fighting for the Order has been caught with his banner, and released after the huge ransome has been paid. I will look for his name.
I thank you much for sharing your sources and knowledge, i’ll try to look in my library.
And yes, my question was indeed generic, but even an expert of ancient history of Mesoamerica know how to handle sources he may find and understand how much they can be reliable better than your regular middle ages
fanboy.
And also he may have friends or know professors with knowledge of the field he need to explore.
This is completely incorrect. Orders brothers were far and few between - like 2-3 hundreds in Prussia all in all. That means land would be deserted completely as German settlers would never managed to come in so quickly. Also in Gdansk there were always a germanic minority and they were also richest citizens usually. Also during Great War Teutonic Order brothers still knew the prussian language and this means they had to use it to contact locals. So especially across the Orders domain farmers were probably still Prussian while cities where settled by German and other ethinicty merchants. Nore or less like in Brandenburgia. Great deal of Orders military activities were mostly run in Lithuania - where they were organizing “raizes” that had officially a status of a crusades, inviting knights from around the Europe to raid Samogitia razing the villages and killing people at will - baptising them with sword and fire. I cannot recollect any complaint to Pope about killing Prussians while Polish and Lithuanians where slaughtering mentioned Yatzvingas at the same time …I only can remember the complaints about actually attacking Polish and Mazovians settlements by Order.
Poland had an armistice with Order and this armistice was mostly respected by both sides even though it was officially expired. This only suggest that there was no actual interest on both sides to reengange in conflict. Only after the Union the Order started feeling threatened by overgrown Jagiellonian state as christianization of Lithuania was removing a reason for celebrated crusades. Having support from Holy Roman Empire they expected to make a quick work of it but it happened differently.
On the other hand Polish reasoning behind the Union was removal of biggest threat they felt at that times and that was … Lithuanians. Right side of Vistula river was deserted because of the constant raids of pagan. After the Union this land has been quickly resettled. Among Polish nobles there were many stories told about piety and devotion of holy brothers eventhough at the same time they knew about many cruel doings of Teutonic Order. In those times it wasn’t actually any weird. Only in Jogaila times there was concerted effort to actually promote the modern idea that pagans have a right to live. And this was Polish idea.
What you saying about the Jogaila propaganda campaign is a misunderstanding as well. His goal was to create support for the war in Poland. Poland had little interest in the war and even there were efforts to stop Jogaila from it so he had to provoke Order rather than attack himself. And his campaign was extremely sucesful and your writings are actually big example of this success. While historians try to correct our thinking most people still believe in Teutonic Order “black legend” created by Jogailo. Also most Europe also favoured Teutonics and campaign aim in this area was to prove Polish-Lithuanians right to “defend” against the Order’s attacks. Which took many years after the war to accomplish anything. This all comes from polish historians also so I wouldn’t consider here any bias.
As for Chechs sure they fought on both sides but interestingly Polish were directly enlisting warriors in Chechia. There were 2 full banners from there and from Moravia. One of them riding into the battle under the standard of Saint George.
@Festine
It would be nice if you could state what you think is incorrect, then we could both look into this matter,so it stands on its own, and i don’t know what you mean. I admit that i take a more lithuanian approach to many matters in this topic, and that i defend the weak, this are my knightley character traits. I have chosen the name of Zawisza Charny, because i share many traits with him, and it was FREE to take.
I have never disputed this, i would even state that this is true. The Prussian language died out only in the 18th century, we could even revive it.
But what makes you think that this has been any different how the Teutonic Order dealt with the Prussians, than with the Lithuanians. Naturally without the ‘international holiday travel agency’. The Prussians suffered much under the crusades against them and after the two major uprisings and another 2 smaller ones, they were broken and had no more power to fight. But what could be the numbers ?
Gediminas estimates that in 1400 the region lived around 100k inhabitants, half of them prussians. So if we take the doubling in 100 years in peace times into our account, then only between 12k and 25k survived the hot times. That would be a statistical evidence, against a ‘honorable’ behavior of the teutonic knights.
But because the history is also written by the victor, we need also a better way of solving this question. The genetical analysis of the ‘prussian’ germans. How many of them have the real prussians origin.
I will tend to a estimation of 5% to 15%, which would speak for the ‘evil german administration’, percentage around 50% with a margin of error of 10% would speak for a quite free assimilation. Best it would be conducted on the dead for the years 1800 to 1900, in the burial grounds in different parts of the region.
The 14th century chronicler Peter von Dusburg mentioned eleven tribal districts in Prussia: Bartia, Culmerland (formerly under Polish control), Galindia, Nadrovia, Natangia, Pogesania, Pomesania, Samland, Scalovia, Sudovia, and Ermland. Peter estimated that while most tribes could muster about 2,000 cavalry, Samland could raise 4,000 cavalry and 40,000 infantry, while Sudovia had 6,000 cavalry and “an almost innumerable multitude of other warriors”. In contrast, the Prussians of ravaged Culmerland could raise fewer troops than the other tribes. Galindia, a forested wilderness of lakes and rivers, also had a small population to raise troops from. Modern estimates indicate a total Prussian population of 170,000, smaller than that suggested by Peter von Dusburg.
So what is the difference between 170k and (the higher number) 25k? I would say around 150k. This is at least (if not much more to around 250k) the number of killed prussians by the teutonic knights, and the crusades, within a timespan of 70 years. This would constitute that 80% of the killed were woman and children, because a man does not give birth to a full grown man.
Where do you have the number of 200-300 Knights? And which times?
That was just at the beginning of the Prussian conquest, the numbers have been small, but their numbers were constantly growing. Naturally the Teutonic Knights were much fewer than the numbers of troops they employed. To being a Teutonic Knight was a honorable title and a lives devotion, and you are only accepted if you were a german and a nobleman. And as i belive, you have to remain chaste for the rest of your live. So now you know why the Teutonic Knights enforced so much the ostcolonisation, to have simply the reinforcments and populus to draw their numbers from. A 100 knights and around 200 sergants and normal troops was alone responsible for the slaughter of the Gdansk inhabitants in 1308. And that was a small contingent.
How long would it take to kill around the 150k/250k prussians, if we just assume that the campaign started in 1230 and ended in 1300? (70 years)
((((150k/250k) / 70 years) / 52 weaks) / 7 days) = 2143/3572 per year. = 42/69 per weak. = 6/10 per day. (middle value) For the campaign a smaller time period is advised, only around 50 years.
Naturally this is only to show, how numbers develop, and it is highly possible that some knights killed nobody, while others just went on a killing rampage. But the Teutonic Order you defend, does not deserve your defence.
The Yotvingian killing, occurred during expeditions against them, by Boleslaw V the Chaste or Konrad I of Masovia / Danylo Halytskyi. In the 1280s the Northern Yotvingians were partly conquered and dispersed or killed by the Teutonic Knights. Some Yotvingians, then took refuge in the Duchy of Lithuania, and they survived, even too a census by the clergy of the Belarus Grodno area in 1860, and the census claims that they had as many as 30,929 inhabitants, identifying themselves as Yatviags.
[quote=“festine, post:19, topic:16144”]
Only in Jogaila times there was concerted effort to actually promote the modern idea that pagans have a right to live.
[/quote] My memory tends to get worse and worse. I think it was proposed at a council, by a polish bishop or so… Do you remember who and when this was?
I think to remove the 2 major threats, to gain one ally and to ensure that the land conquered in the east stays in polish hands. And to regain strength through peace after the wars. But also as a pay back for Pommern, which was not forgoten.
I tend to think, that the polish nobles knew or that they thought, after the witnessing of the ‘ostcolonisation’ and the effects of it, that they were the next in line. If they do not stop this development. That is could be also the reason perhaps, why they had proposed the entire Jogaila thing.
But even after the declaration of war by the Order, the attack on polish territory and the damage in 1409 this was not important anymore, Ulich von Jungingen has made his move, and the polish nobility was against him.
Part 2: @Festine
To the relations between the poles and lithuanians:
-Aldona of Lithuania:
Aldona married Casimir III of Poland, when he was 15 or 16 years old. The bride was probably of about the same age. The marriage took place on 30 April or 16 October 1325 and was a purely political maneuver to strengthen the first Polish–Lithuanian coalition against the Teutonic Knights. Casimir was seeking allies in the dispute over Pomerania with the Order. Gediminas had just undertaken an unsuccessful attempt to Christianize Lithuania. Casimir and Gediminas made and agremment, that woluld lead to the Union of Krewo. The details of the agreement are not known. But it is known that Gediminas released all Polish captives around 25,000 who returned then to Poland. The importance of the marriage was attested by the fact that Władysław abandoned his earlier plans to marry his son to Jutta of Bohemia. The alliance was put into effect, when joint Polish-Lithuanian forces organized an attack against the Margraviate of Brandenburg in 1326. There is no evidence of fighting between Poland and Lithuania while Aldona was alive.
-Jogaila:
Jogaila lived (1351/1363-1434), Grand Duke of Lithuania (1377-1434), Kind of Poland (Jatiwiga) (1386-1399) and King of Poland (alone) (1399-1434).
In 1384, Jogaila explored the option, presented by the Grand Duchy of Moscow and brokered by his Orthodox mother Uliana of Tver: converting to Orthodoxy and marrying Sophia, daughter of Dmitry Donskoy. In the eyes of Catholics, Orthodoxy was not any better than paganism. Therefore such conversion would not protect from the Teutonic attacks. A third option, presented by Polish nobles, avoided major pitfalls of the Teutonic or Muscovite proposals.
-Jatwiga:
Jatwiga (1373/4 1399) Was supposed to mary William of Austria. In 1385 he came to Kraków to consumate the marrige, but the polish nobles have thrown him out of Kraków (perhaps even Wawel) and expelled him from Poland (Against the will of Jatwiga). In the same year they have signed the Union of Krewo. Nobles from Lesser Poland, including Spytek of Melsztyn, Jan of Tarnów, Jan Tęczyński, proposed the Jadwiga married Jogaila, Grand Duke of Lithuania.
Due to negative propaganda by William of Austria and the Teutonic Knights, the marriage was not confirmed by Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), only Pope Boniface IX (1389–1404) declared it legitimate.
Christianizing Lithuania: conversion of pagan Jogaila, Lithuanian nobles and all pagan Lithuanians to Roman Catholicism
Paying compensation of 200,000 florins to William, Duke of Austria for the termination of the engagement between Jadwiga and William
Returning of all lands lost in wars by Poland. This in particular referred to territories in Red Ruthenia that Louis I of Hungary attached to the Kingdom of Hungary.
Releasing of all Christian war prisoners held by the Lithuanians
Attaching (Latin: applicare) of Lithuanian and Ruthenian lands to the Crown of Poland
Between 1340 - 1392 raged the ‘Galicia–Volhynia’ war:
1340-1344 Poland, Golden Horde and Lithuania fought against each other about this region. But in 1344 a peace treaty was made.
1348-1366 In this time there was then war then peace then war. Casimir was successful in driving the Lithuanians back.
1370-1382 Same again, a war.
Jogailas wars to constitute his rulership:
1381-1384 Lithanian civil war.
1389-1392 Lituanian civil war.
So yes i will not dispute the fact that poland was very often in war with Lithuania, and that only ended with the coronation of Jogaila. But during 1340 and 1389 Poland has at least doubled its size, and managed to convert Lithuania to catholicism.
But did the wars devastate this lands that are east of Vistula? I don’t know. I believe only one historians and archaeologists for this area can answer this. But since many of this lands belonged previously to the Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia inhabitated by the Ruthnians (east slavic / orthodox), and that they are still living there. It is therefore highly doubtful, that the previous living people there were killed on mass, leaving this lands empty for a resettlement. It is also true that the many Poles were living in this areas, till 1945, but it could be so that they were simply polonized, like the lithuanians around Vilnus. That could be the reason, why so many poles have the R1a1 Z280 genes (east slavic).
To the relations between the poles and teutonic knights?
1308 Gdańsk slaughter (rzeź Gdańska) by the teutonic knights. I do not insist on the 10.000 dead, but more around 1000-3000. And i also think that there ware a german minority, before the slaughter. But the polish overestimate and the german underestimate the numbers of victims.
The possession of Danzig and Pomerelia by the Teutonic Order was questioned consistently by the Polish kings Władysław I and Casimir the Great in legal suits in the papal court in 1320 and 1333. Both times, as well as in 1339, the Teutonic Knights were ordered by the Pope to return Pomerelia (east pommern) and other lands back to Poland, but did not comply. Because Mestwin II refers in 1271 to the danzig people with: “burgensibus theutonicis fidelibus” we can surely state that the populus of Danzig had at least a large part of germans.
1326–32 Polish–Teutonic War over the east pommern. After that 66 years of peace.
@Festine
Now back to me and the superb ‘propaganda’ conducted by Jogaila against the Teutonic Knights. Do i need a ‘propaganda’ to convince me about the bad habits of the Teutonic Knights?
First. We know the reports by the crusade guests, where they state exactly how many, where, who and how has been killed.
Second. We have the numbers and the ‘quite good’ estimations, about the inhabitants in a certain region, in a certain time.
Third. We have the knowledge about the rites or requirements to become a Knight of the Teutonic Knights.
Fourth. We have the written accounts, reports by chronicles about the crusades and the uprisings in prussia.
Everything else is to evaluate this thing, one by one, to use some logic and to count this things together.
I don’t need Jogaila to tell me how the Teutonic Knight were. I recognize the people by their deeds.
The Prussians survived the for over 2 thousand years in this region. They survived the germanic ‘Völkerwanderung’, the Huns ,the slavic expansion and even the viking raids. They even survived the for two and half centuries of polish attacks on them. But they did not survive the massacres, the damage and the ‘ostkolonisation’ committed by the Teutonic Knights.
The surviving ‘Baltic’ people, are the Lithuanians and the Latvians, and both of them celebrate the unity against the Teutonic Knights, the destruction of the Teutonic Knights and the expelling of the germans from their lands.
Perhaps if it wasn’t for the union between poland and lithuania, maybe there would be no Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Litauen, Latvia, Estland, Belarus and Israel.
My opinion about Jogaila and Vytautas is clear, they may not have been the virtues in persona, but they were strong and smart Dukes and Kings, who have done the necessary for the survival of their people, culture and language. And therefore i respect them.
Latvian here. I agree with @Zawisza_Czarny about having no shame or pity for the Teutonic Order. They caused more pain to latvian and estonian people than nazis or the soviets. Almost 600 years of serfdom/slavery under their rule (later as a part of Livonian Order) leaves them with no excuse in my eyes.
One of the first things Latvia did when it was formed as a country was to take the lands back from the german lords that have held them undisturbed since early 14th century.
You will also see that partly because of this, latvian people are not very religious, me included
What you do here is quite common misunderstanding - attempt to judge people based on your modern conscience. This is made so often …
I do not oppose the fact that Teutonic brothers were ruthless killers. They indeed were. But like most of people of that time. Good example is that Polish knights were very often 'guests of the Order" on the ‘raizes’ killing pagans with same zeal as anyone. You also mistake results of Jogaila ( with help of some Polish nobles ) propaganda with common conscience of Polish nobility. After the war Jogaila was sending emissaries to Rome that were trying to change Vatican’s position against pagans - that they are not mere animals that can be slaughtered if they won’t convert. Because this was the way most Christians also in Poland were thinking at that time. And this is why most Polish nobles were not really hating Order or anything. And that’s where comes pre-war Jogailo’s propaganda. To convince them that it is not wrong to defend against holy Order. That this Order is in fact so evil that they should defend catholic state against not-so-holy brothers.
Your calculation of Prussian population is also a bit off - it does not says anything about any massacres or anything that you suggested in previous post. First of all it is hardly possible that such rather primitive population would double in volume while side by side Lithuanians that were in a lot better situation ( not repressed and safe from most sides ) managed to double only within 100 years in XIV century. And while Prussians were enslaved, converted and repressed I would consider that many of them just fled to neighboring states and lots of them also got converted and started using German as they main language - at that time it was enough to consider them German. I cannot see here anything really that dramatic considering situation was already bad - to compare population of Sorbs from the moment of fall of the Berlin Wall (when they requested some autonomy) till about 2010 decreased also twice (from 40 to 20 k as i recollect) while no one was massacred or anything. This is just a result of pure passive “de-ethnification”.
As for Jogaila - there is no argument about him being smart. But for sure reasoning behind his workings might be different - first of all his primary concern was Lithuania that was his family state and Poland was rather a way to achieve his goals - the Great War with Order is good example - Poland managed to eventually regain some land ( but as i recollect this was not a direct result of the war itself but later diplomacy ) but most important gain was securing Samogitia. Whole propaganda - both internal pre-war and the one in Rome after the war also shows his values. He had though very good school of life with so many brothers competing for the position of arch-duke of Lithuania in a ways that goes well beyond the understanding of brotherly rivalry (altogether with ideas like one of them siding with Teutonic Order against other brothers ).
As for right bank of Vistual river I meant this part that was in direct contact with actual Lithuania - eastern Mazovia mostly. In fact it was resettled after the Great War. For the southern parts it was actually quite safe. And Ruthenian part … I simply prefer not to dig in it as it is still controversial topic I guess and not a scope of what we talk about.
I understand historical sentiments but lay it off if we want to have anything quite true to the facts of the past and this game is all about it. What we have here are simple facts:
Poland and Chechs were tied at that time very closely ( your hero Zawisza is great example - while he fought for Poland most of his life he spent serving king Sigismund Luxembourg of Chechs )
Chechs took important part in biggest battle of Middle Ages - battle of Grunwald - and it seems most of them and by heart rather they were on Polish-Lithuanian side
Diplomacy between Poland and king Sigismund Luxembourg of Chechs was one of primary concern of Poland both after the war but also in times before it.
Grunwald battle with its size and the fact that most important European knights took part in it is hard to miss in a game happening in around this time. It is excellent background and a chance to show military events of the greatest size.
If we could get implemented Polish knights singing the ‘Mother of God’ song before the fight it would probably made many people quite impressed.
Worth mentioning is that while I am sure Polish and Chech still can quite understand each another as being closest relative at the beginning of XV century it was probably even easier for them.
