The myth of arrow quivers on the back

By the way about Germany and eastern quiver. :slight_smile: Germany 1389

“Concordantiae Caritatis” des Ulrich von Lilienfeld Germany 1349-1351


Martyrdom of St. Sebastian, prayerbook of Barbara von Cilly (ÖNB 1767, fol. 270r), 1448 Vienna.

Conrad Laib, Salzburg 1449

Ahem, Hungary is NOT a slavic country…

But yes, a big part of the Bohemian society were German or German oriented, but mostly only the nobility and clergy while the peasantry was Bohemian/Czech. Even the language (and culture and social) barrier between nobility and peasantry (German vs. Czech) was one of the reasons for the uprising of the Czech.

And yes, Sigismund was the Roman Emperor later but he also was the king of Hungary. He specificially made an edict about the light archer cavalry in Hungary to make them stronger again after his experiences in Nicopolis (the militia portalis). But you might be right that these archers were rarely used in Bohemia since part of the edict was the reassurance that the Hungarian nobility only had to fight within their borders.

I personally still think that that there were many different kinds of archers present at that time and at the location. And I also think that crossbowmen were much more numerous. But I’m happy with anything you’ll come up. Just explain it in detail to us… :wink:

I wasnt saying that Hungary is Slavic :slight_smile: and I dont want to start any nationalist discussions so I should have rather said, that the country was part of the Holy Roman Empire and then Habsburg monarchy for several hundred years so most of its existence it was under western influence and I am saying that cause lot of people who dont know our history still think that some eastern nomad tribes lived here. They didnt.

Ah ok, I understand. But you could said most of that for Hungary as well. In fact, Louis the Great, Hungarian, Polish and Croatian king in the 14th century (direct predecessor of Sigismund as his father-in-law btw), was one of the most powerful men in whole Europe with a very cultured way of living. Of course there lived tribes in Hungary but it wasn’t a wild and uncivilized country by any means. His style of regency wasn’t much different from the one people were used in Germany or the HRE. I think the mistake here is to believe that eastern European rulers and kingdoms were all barbarians. Sure, they had influences from nomadic tribes and a diffferent cultural heritage than central or western Europeans but at least the nobility wasn’t all that different in 1400… :wink:

It wasn’t my intention to say that tribes lived in Bohemia as well. My point was that Sigismund might used Hungarian forces or mercenaries as the king of the country who was deeply rooted there. So it could have been quite possible to meet Hungarian-influenced or Hungarian archers in Bohemia at 1400. At least there are sources that claim that Sigismund himself wore Hungarian clothes, spoke Hungarian fluently and spent most of his time there. So it’s not that far fetched to think that he actually brought some influences and elements back to Bohemia (one might be fashion…) :wink:

[quote]Hungarian affiliations

Sigismund was known to speak fluent Hungarian, wore Hungarian style royal clothes and even grew his beard as the Hungarians.[12]

He also spent huge amounts of money during his reign to rebuild the Gothic castles of Buda and Visegrád in the Kingdom of Hungary, ordering the transportation of materials from Austria and Bohemia.[13]

His many affairs with women led to the birth of several legends, as the one that existed decades later during the reign of the King Matthias Corvinus of Hungary. According to this, John Hunyadi was Sigismund’s illegitimate son. Sigismund gave a ring to the boy’s mother when he was born, but one day in the forest a raven stole it from her, and the ring was only recovered after the bird was hunted down. It is said that this incident inspired the coat of arms of the Hunyadis, and later also appeared in the coat of arms of Matthias “Corvinus”.[14]

Sigismund adopted the Hungarian reverence for Saint Ladislaus I of Hungary, who was considered to be an ideal Christian knight at that time. He went on pilgrimage several times to his tomb in Nagyvárad. Before Sigismund died, he ordered to be buried next to the king saint.[15][/quote]

Edit: I don’t have any nationalist feelings here, don’t worry. I’m a true cosmopolitan or at least European. But I have indeed some Hungarian roots so that’s where my interest come from… :wink:

It is rare, but here I must actually even give Crash-Lord right. It was since that time actually a discernible influence on the fashion and culture in Germany. Hungarian was “in” in the 15th century (and yes, those quivers shown in the last pictures were very common in Germany in that time and also “Hungarian saddles” and more). However, this is well known and need not be an object of speculation here. For example: “The Germans” throw away Their shields and built Pavese instead, but equestrian archers with pigtails, there was still none. As Dan said, Bohemia was an important and influential part of the German Realm. Not only noble people but also many simple artisans and settlers came to the end of the 14th century to Bohemia and German and Czech languages ​​were relatively equal. Even the mentioned Wenceslas Bible is written in German and King Wenceslas was a German from Nuremberg, I think. Mentioned only for fashion, not for nationalism, for sure!! Because Crash-Lord has once again asserted that there were so few sources, today I sat down and researched the whole evening. In contrary, there are quite much sources even! I even found a book in the deep of my bookshelves that I had completely forgotten: “Sigismund rex et imperator 1387-1437” with many many interesting research-approaches and sources. Material for month of work. Taken all together, I can say in all clarity that there are only marginal differences in fashion. Not more than local differences in different regions of Germany for example. Some unusual hats, beards and mustaches a little more, but on the whole it seems pretty comparable. Apart from legitimate desire what all would be even more exciting and interesting, the wester-approach IMHO is the right one. I say that not because I am an “extremist” but because I took a long look at the books.

You should fill many threads here with your insights @loksley

I’d love to hear more about the topic and others, really. I just seperate a good discussion on the board from actual expectations how the game should look or feel like. :wink:

Good to hear, but not easy to beleve :wink:
Do not worry, this is (hopefully) my last posting for this topic. There are still some things in this game which are more important to me; clothes for instance.
I don’t want to force myself to anyone. But like you, I have the impression I could possibly change something in this development stage which is maybe in a few weeks already impossible. So I just had to try it.

This is IMHO the way to integrate your east-european influence in the game: :wink:


could maybe avoid clipping issues by hangning quiver on lower back side of waist where arms hardly go. don’t know if animation exist there as well.

Robin Doesnt care, Warhorse, do it as you want


Nice Picture, one of my childhood-heroes!
One last point I said before in an other thread:
If the most will not care, why not do the historical thing for the few who cares? The greater benefit from that could be a more consistent overall picture and that Warhorse could say “the game is historical correct as far as we could do that” with no remorse. :wink:

The answer could be for instance:

  • We already finished it and it would be too expensive and time consumting to change it. (How much is historical realism worth? Would it put the game/other cool features in risk?)
  • We try/talked about it and there were strong technical complications (like in this case!!!) and it would be too expensive/not worth the efford.
  • We didn’t know that this was not historic… (too late! :wink: )
  • We do not want that, because too many people moaning around and didn’t like the game to be “too much authentic” and those historical-extremists are just annoying. :wink:

Yes, stop it. One thing is argue and discuss about history, and the other thing is insisting ad nauseum to implement it.

They told you why. I’m sure that if they can do it at some point, they will. At least we will be able to mod it so stop whining about this, please.


I could imagine that there is less noise when going out for a hunt having the arrows on the back. The only reason for me to have it on the back. :slight_smile: Havent read everything in here, 140 posts is too much, so sry if it was mentioned before.

@loksley I think you don’t do Warhorse justice here. I think they really want to deliver a good display how medieval really was in 1400 in Bohemia. They want to deliver on that whereever it is possible but they also have to take into account what is possible with the tech, skills and money they have. I believe Dan would personally love to make a 100% realistic game but in video game development you have to make compromises, especically if you have limited time and funds (which is quite often the case). Dan already explained to us why they put the quiver on the back and it’s not because they think that it is historically accurate or the “best possible option” concerning realism. It’s just that the “best possible option” concerning realism would require a lot of additional work and would cause problems in the technical execution of the game which is far worse than a small change or “failure” in their realisitic vision. It’s not that Warhorse hated reenactors or thought that they are annoying or anything. Annoying is imo only the pushy attitude of some people sometimes to persuade Warhorse to do it their way at whatever costs. :wink:


This is a hybrid that would work too I suppose, but let’s not beat the dead horse too much anymore. I quite fancy back quivers.

I know that this won’t help to developers, but I think it’s related so to anyone inerested, this is picture from Bohemia 1340, Velislavova bible ( page 117r ). Two men wearing quivers (notice different arrow tips).

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They also use composite bows (at least the right one)… :stuck_out_tongue:

They look gay allright …

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what you can see here very good is, that in this type of quiver, especially in those for bolts, the arrows/bolts are in it with the arrowhead to the top. The quiver gets wider at the bottom, to give room for the feathers. Little detail that can be easily overseen.

Was a nice pleasant conversation until you came along throwing words like “hate” and “extremists” around. You brought the hate.

At least the right quiver is round and covers the entire arrow with the tip upwards which is a quite good indication that its origins lied in the Middle East or in Hungary (the whole form of the quiver looks like that). The Hungarian Magyar and especially the Cuman weaponry was almost entirely inspired by the riding nomads of the Middle East and Asia and not by central European innovations and techniques. The design of bows and quivers was probably brought to Hungary by the Cumans in the 12. century. Before that the design is at least known from the Tartars. English longbow archers for example used an arrow bag in battle at the time with the arrow tips downwards and another design (someone published a picture and description of the arrow bag above). And often they apparently just put arrows in their belt without any quiver if needed.

So both the quivers and the bows in the picture have an “Asian” design originally made for mounted combat by nomads and not a European design. By the way, the quiver shown in the picture wasn’t really made for combat/battle but for transportation. Often you could close the quiver to protect arrows from getting wet and stuff. In an actual battle situation the mounted archers from the Middle East and Hungary used another quiver, some sort of a stand-by quiver. It’s even very likely that they used up to three quivers in battle since unlike the infantry English archers for example they couldn’t just get new arrows directly in battle (brought to them by servants) and so they had to take as much arrows with them on horseback as possible. That’s the design of such a stand-by quiver (which shows quite some similarities with quivers from the far East like medieval China…):

Edit: It could quite possibly be that Bohemia as the political and cultural centere of the HRE in 1400 brought together and mixed different types of weapons and weapon designs from various places and cultural backgrounds. So far I saw both Central/Western European and Eastern European (mainly Hungarian) influences in comtemporary paintings. I think that’s great for Warhorse and for us as gamers since that would result in a bigger pool of possibilites and options concerning weapon design. :wink: