Of course, they can never win a debate with their moronic ideas, and plans. So the only way they stay in power is by silencing opposition and shouting everyone else down.
And you think the people in power now are bad, check out videos of collage kids using Maoist red guard tactics against people who disagree with them, hell they almost mobbed a professor just for saying to lay off Halloween costumes.
Just imagine when these young fanatics are in political positions with the full power of the state behind them.
Well why didn’t they then? Their leader at the time probably scored with the money made off the Iraq war, and Afghanistan is extremely rich in Lithium, which you can bet the leaders made bank off of.
Also that is different case. We would have troops stationed in Poland, ready to die for their sovereignty as a nation, because they’re too damned incompetent to protect themselves.
If they’re the strongest military power in Europe, then why do they need troops there? If Russia decided to invade Poland would be able to hold its own until reinforcements from other NATO countries showed up. I don’t see any reason for troops being there.
It is highly unlikely Russia would invade Poland too, Poland has nuclear allies, the age of European warfare is over, and it was as soon as countries started getting nukes.
I wasn’t debating this. I’m simply saying seeing how Europe has had the largest and most destructive wars ever fought on its soil, due to other countries invading and occupying each other, i would assume they would have strong enough militaries to prevent that from happening again.
You know what? Our boys went to help you when you needed it. Polish boys went to help you when you need it it. They all went directly into deep shit. Many paid with their blood.
Now all the Poles are asking is to have a few of your boys to take a vacation on a base with NATO flag in Poland, and you react like this?
Fuck you.
So that the need to use them never materializes. As long as its Polish blood on the ground, other countries may be hesitant to add its own. Once it would be everyone’s blood on the ground, the price for spilling it would very clearly be too high for Russia.[quote=“SirWarriant, post:9715, topic:21032”]
I’m simply saying seeing how Europe has had the largest and most destructive wars ever fought on its soil, due to other countries invading and occupying each other, i would assume they would have strong enough militaries to prevent that from happening again
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We’ve tried that for 1000 years, it didn’t work. So now we got together in a single Union and it seems to work better as regards war prevention among its members.
And how many U.S troops died in the fight against Fascism, how much money did we pour into helping rebuild Europe? How long have we been protecting countries over their because their militarises cannot?
If i had it my way i would pull all the troops out of Europe, Asia, and every where else we have them. America is supposed to be an isolationist country, wars started by Europeans is the reason we are not.
It is very regretful that soldiers from NATO died in middle eastern wars to satisfy the greed of our corrupt leaders. But the idea that the U.S owes Europe is utter horse shit. We have been helping each other out for the past 70 years, neither of us owe each other anything. I wouldn’t be demanding that Czech troops come to the U.S to fight if we ever had a war on our soil.
It’s mainly the way Poland went about asking for support, pretty much black mailing other nations, it was a low move.
So i’m sorry if I’m a selfish ass hole, and yeah fuck me for not wanting my country going to war on another fucking continent which wouldn’t affect us and fuck me for not wanting thousands of young Americans dying for allies who hate us.
As i said before European warfare is over, the capacity to destroy ourselves is too great, moving troops into Poland would only make things worse.
The EU has nothing to do with. The reason Europeans haven’t been at each others throats for the past 70 years is because of this
Well you have to admit that before EU a war may have been understood as a way to promote own economy, at best to the detriment of others. That’s what Germans did both in WW1 and WW2.
However the reality right now is that there are tens of thousands of US soldiers in countries like Germany, Italy, Denmark, sitting down and scratching their assholes. Meanwhile there are next to none in NATO countries that would greatly benefit from their presence.
As long as they are in Europe and as long as US is committed to NATO and expects the same commitment from other NATO members, it is fair to ask to put those soldiers where they count.
If it came to that I would fight for your freedom the same as for the freedom of Estonians. On your soil the same as in the Baltics.
Divided we fall.
There is nothing low about it.
UK wants something, namely to change the EU treaties to the detriment of Poland. Poland says: OK, but give me something for it. Give me a couple of your soldiers under NATO flag on my soil, show me that you are committed to NATO. [Again, UK is free to leave the table completely any time, but as long as it sits by it, it needs to abide by the rules it agreed to]
France wants something. Namely support for its operations in Syria (especially taking over their load elsewhere, like in Mali). Poland says: OK, but give me something for it. Give me a couple of your soldiers under NATO flag on my soil, show me that you are committed to NATO.
We created the UN and NATO to ensure peace that’s what they are there for . We created the EU to boost trade not to become a super state run by unelected Officals .
Why didn’t we just surrender to the Germans eh ? Europe would of been one big state and no chance of invading each other then right ?
It’s a sad day when people hand over democracy without a fight for the promise of peace .
Do you seriously believe Putin wants to invade Europe or even just Poland ? Have you lost your mind ?
How anyone could seriously think Putin has any intention of attacking the west is beyond logical thought , in what way would Russia benefit from a war with NATO ?
Well if they’re doing nothing over there then sure send them to the countries that need it, but i don’t want more U.S troops being sent, do you realize how much money it costs maintain our 150+ bases around the world?
Again, I’m not really anti NATO or us helping our allies, but there has to be a point where we say enough is enough, you guys need to start taking care of your selves. I have no idea why in gods name we would have fucking troops in Italy, and Germany.
I mean don’t the people their protest this? I for one would not like the idea of a large foreign military presence permanently in my country ally or not.
If the U.S were to be invaded ( which is not going to happen) i am highly sceptical of Europe coming to our aid. I’m not doubting you personally just your government, 90% of the NATO countries can hardly defend themselves.
The NATO agreement is pretty one sided if you think about it, in recent years it’s sorta just turned into the U.S protecting the smaller nations who have cut their militarises down to nothing. It’s not like Europe is really in a position to fight say, China with us which by the way is FAR more likely than a war with Russia, in fact i’m counting on it happening within the next 30 years or so.
“It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world”- George Washington
“Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations-entangling alliances with none.”- Thomas Jefferson
This is precisely what we have gotten ourselves into, entangling alliances. We could be drawn into war with dozens of nations, because of who are are allies with.
Why exactly are you laughing? We ended our isolationism towards the end of the First world war, due to Germany sinking our ships, and encouraging Mexico to attack us. We were trading to both sides, but Germany couldn’t handle it. As for the second world war, we were attacked by the Japanese, and Hitler declared war on the U.S.
By then we were involved too much with Europe, and we started the power struggle with the Soviet Union, trying to stop the spread of communism, which is why we invaded so many countries after ww2.
You are insulting all Europeans, because we are not one nation we are group of individuals. How is Luxemburg responsible for US being invovled?
US is not and never was separated from anything or anyone. The guys you quted were pricks, thats all. As long as you share the same planet with all other people you will always be involved.
This is like being friends with a guy on the other side of the street but when he slips and cannot get up, you just ignore him.
Lol in what way? I simply said European warfare was the cause of the U.S to break its tradition of isolationism, i never insulted anyone.
Lol what are you even on about? What do you even mean the U.S is not “separated” from anyone? We are are own country, we earned that right when we defeated the British and won our independence, the founders of this nation decided to remain isolated from the politics of the world.
Many people living in the U.S at the time of its founding had fled Europe, fled from wars, religious persecution, or famine. They didn’t want to make the same mistakes Europe did.
Lol, how were they pricks? Because they didn’t want to get tangled up in the constant state of warfare in Europe? They were 100% right about entangling alliances, just look at world war 1 it would have remained a relatively small conflict had it not been for all the alliances.
I disagree, there is always a choice weather or not to get involved in another countries issues, we have stupidly chosen to do just that for the past 50 fucking years.
I have no issue providing Humanitarian aid to countries, but i generally oppose the U.S getting involved in wars half way across the world.
Incorrect, we invaded Iraq for oil yes, but most of the conflicts we have been in the past 50 years, have been linked to the Domino theory. The idea that if one country in a region turns communist all the others will follow. It had everything to do with the titanic power struggle between us and the Soviets.
Also how about some fucking consistency? I always hear people bitch and moan about the U.S playing “world police” and always getting involved, but when i say i want the U.S to stay out of things i get responses like this.
Meanwhile: Russian occupation of Moldova: check.
Russian occupation of Georgia: check.
Russian occupation of Ukraine: check.
The problem is that in Putin’s mind, the west starts in Germany, not in Estonia.
Also, you make the mistake of thinking of him as a politician. Meanwhile he is a gangster in politician’s seat, so different logic applies.
How exactly did Russia benefit from wars with Georgia, Ukraine?
Anyways, if you think that “little green men” coming to a NATO state is impossible (which is, BTW already happening on small scale), then you surely must admit there would be nothing wrong with NATO soldiers spending what is effectively vacations in a NATO country, if it makes the country feel safer.
Also, it takes 10 minutes from the closest Czech base to reach Poland on road.
Again, nobody says send more troops. Poland is just saying that cold war is over for 25 years now so maybe it makes sense to put the troops where they matter, instead of keeping them ready in stations positioned to avert Czech and Polish invasion of Western Europe (ours were designated as first, Ruskies were supposed to follow in Warsaw pact strategy).
Not really, they are used to it and locals around bases benefit from the $$$.
We did have massive protests when US soldiers were supposed to be positioned in the Czech Republic as part of the anti-missile shield. It even lead to fall of our government and early elections. [The argument was we will happily be part of the structure, but the local part must be manned by Czech soldiers]
So unlike Poles, we don’t want foreign military presence here.
Forgot 9/11? Already forgot the support you got in Afghanistan?
Look at it this way. To make a difference, you don’t need to be all in. Look at the battle of Britain. The outcome would very likely be different if not for the foreign pilots. Even though none of their home countries could provide full military help to UK at the time.
Look at the Czech Republic only. We are a small country. But we do have the best anti-chemical/biological/nuclear warfare unit in whole NATO. We do have radar technology that can effectively guide missiles against stealth airplanes. And few other perks.
I don’t know if you are so dumb or if you are just trolling me.
The only time Article 5 of NATO treaty was invoked, it was invoked by the US.
We sent our European boys to help you and they paid in blood.
Now some want you to take your boys who are sitting on their asses in Germany and Italy and send them to sit on their asses in places like Poland and Estonia, where their sitting on their asses might actually do a difference. We are not asking for your blood, not even for money (Poland and Estonia are way cheaper than Germany and Italy), just for a show of goodwill.
And you come and spit this bullshit. Our boys are still in Afghanistan fighting what is essentially your war, and you come up and say that in recent years Europe has done nothing but having been protected by US.
You spit on the graves of all our boys that died following US invoking Article 5 of NATO treaty and you should be ashamed of yourself.[quote=“SirWarriant, post:9724, topic:21032”]
China with us which by the way is FAR more likely than a war with Russia, in fact i’m counting on it happening within the next 30 years or so
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China represents no threat to US as long as US would stick out of far East. If US engages in favor, of say, Japan there, it is your own issue. If Japan wants direct European support, it is up to the Japan to ask for it.
It is not like China would be a threat to any US soil.
You should add prequel. I said Poles significantly supported US in both Iraq and Afghanistan, with many paying in blood.
You shaid it may be true but asking for your soldiers to come and sit on their hands and doing nothing on bases in Poland would be too much.
If this is how Americans understand alliances - only to your own favor, never to give something back, then yes, fuck you.
And if you want to come back to WW2, then don’t forget that you entered it only when you were yourself attacked and when the threat posed by the German-Japan alliance became too high to ignore. Not to mention that you joined on the ground only after Russians changed the tide and it became only a question of time when they roll over Germany, possibly whole Europe.
Correct, it has been, so why exactly are their shit tons of U.S troops stationed in Europe still?
That had NOTHING to do with the protection of America, all of NATO was conned by George Bush, and many Americans did not support those wars.
Again it is very regretful that troops lost their lives because of some idiots decision.
Again if you wanna keep saying that Europe “paid in blood” i’ll just tally up the 700,000 U.S soilders dead for European interests. Not to mention the billions of dollars the U.S gave to Europe after ww2, and let’s also add up that without U.S troops in western Europe they would have gotten ass raped by the Soviets.
I repeat the U.S owes Europe nothing, if you wanna say Iraq and Afgan makes the U.S and Europe even then go ahead.
I already said i have no issue with moving troops from countries that don’t need it, but i question why the fuck we have troops over their to begin with. A lot of NATO countries are nuclear powers, there is no way Russia is going to invade them unless they want the world to end.
I have nothing to be ashamed of, and I’m not apologizing for what i said, it’s extremely arrogant that you think the U.S owes Europe over the wars in the middle east. They were nothing but side shows compared to how much fucking blood was shed on European soil.
And how exactly am i spitting on their graves? Because i don’t want the U.S sending troops to Poland to fight against a Russian invasion that will never happen? Even if we sent troops i highly fucking doubt it would deter Russia if they wanted to invade.
We’ve been over this before Europe made its own bed, when you chopped your armies down to nothing, Russia could walk right over Europe now.
China poses just as much as a fucking threat to the U.S as Russia does, more so considering China is far more aggressive and their government is highly unstable.
We pretty much have the same fucking deal going over in Asia as we do in Europe, we have a bunch of U.S troops stationed over their because of China. So again us allying with weak fucking countries has gotten us into a situation where we could be at war with extremely powerful nuclear nations.
I already went over all the things the U.S has done for Europe, and you’re missing the point. I and many Americans do not want entangling alliances like this.
The U.S has given far more to Europe than vise versa and that is a fact, I’m sorry if you don’t like that but its true.
Germany was of NO threat to us what so ever. We could have said fuck you Europe, and just delt with Japan which had actually invaded U.S soil. But do you know what we fucking did? We decided to help Europe out and start with Germany first. That decision pissed a lot of people off.
And to add to that Japan really had no intention of occupying mainland U.S. They just wanted us out of Asia so they could control it.
The Russians that were begging us to open a second front? The Russians who were kept afloat by our supplies?
And who was preventing them from doing that? I think we both know the answer to that.
The U.S has done enough for Europe, we have our own issues to sort out.
