This game and/or sequels would benefit from Co-Op Play

#1

Like Skyrim, this kind of story-driven RPG would benefit hugely from having a second person tag along for your journey. It would be quite easy to write in, you both can start in a separate prologue or even have sections that split you but if you script it correctly and have quested rendezvous points where your paths cross again it can really make you feel like you’re both important to the story.

Likewise if you want to simply have 2 people traveling together through a story it can work too. But the idea of robbing places while one looks out for trouble or simply distracting a key person is amazing. Likewise, a Warrior/Archer duo or simply riding through the fields together is a hugely exciting prospect. Especially if you can designate one to ‘do the talking’ and be the ‘rogue’ of the group while the other is the tank really ingrains a feeling of RP and immersion that you couldn’t match. It wouldn’t be the usual bullshit role/class that’s thrust upon you in this genre, it’d be an emergent role specialization that comes from pure playstyle - particularly given the action based leveling system.

I hope Warhorse understands the value of this simple feature in a genre that is starved of Co-op play - it’s an easy victory that would print money.

For now though I’d love Warhorse to smooth out the combat system and get better at bedding down the basics in terms of stability and polish but they should really consider seriously the value of co-op play in any sequels.

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#2

I respect your perspective, but for me co-op or multiplayer games ruin the immersion and feel of a game. Not all who play have an understanding of the historical periods and nuance of cultures. I could never get into D&D because number of people with their differing opinions on how something was =supposed to work. Not thrashing your comments, just adding my perspective.

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#3

You understand the co-op is a purely voluntary feature right? I’m not suggesting an MMO where multiple people are - that would be ridiculous and not even KCD, I’m suggesting a story that maybe 2 could play through. I don’t think that would ruin the feel at all, on the contrary I think it would deepen it.

I’m just saying it would not just be great to have that option, but groundbreaking for Warhorse to do that as I don’t see many games offering deep story-based RPGs that allow for a co-op experience. It would be a huge opportunity to get sales through offering something that many have wanted for years but none have delivered so far. Only looter shooters with half baked stories and full focus on loot have done this so far really.

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#4

Don’t want co op? Even if its just an option? I really don’t understand this opinion. It has been told to me many times, and I still don’t understand it. Not bashing you, I’m just really trying to understand it. For example with Dark souls, albiet less of an rpg, has coop and versus but you don’t have to enable it.
If my best friend and I could play this co op it just might be the best gaming experience ever! I don’t care if the host’s story completely ignored the other player, why? Because we’re playing together!!! If they limit themselves to “we have to make it to where the story recognizes both players” then that would be a lot of work.
@D_Money You’re right. This is a huge opprotunity for warhorse to consider. I asked the same question long ago.

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#5

It just wouldn’t work, they would need to change most of the mechanics in the game to fit the co-op style. What happens if a player should die? Would they both need to restart?
How would you even save? Checkpoint system?
What happens when one goes to jail?
Those are just a few examples.

There are way too many variables to account for. They would literally need to change everything about the game.
I would rather have an awsome single player game, rather than a half baked game with co-op slapped onto it.

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#6

No! Co-op is not good. It ruins the immersion and feels just like a fun game.

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#7

Well that’s why I did leave the option of a sequel to have this feature as I understand it would need engine level reworks. But if an amateur can frankenstein code without access to the hardcoding and make multiplayer work in Skyrim, believe me many things are possible - they proved it. I disagree that it would make any perceptible change to anyone who wouldn’t want to use the feature…again…because it’s opt in. If you wanted to purely play SP then go ahead, but having the option to share the experience in my eyes can only be a good thing. When that modder got a Skyrim MP mod working people where drooling at the mouth, there is a real appetite for a MP deep story-driven RPG experience and all I’m saying is Warhorse should profit in that. They broke ground in their depth of medieval ‘simulation’ and disempowered character origins, they have a chance to break ground again. I’m completely surprised noone has tried to deliver MP story RPGs before. I’m guessing quest triggers and dialogue would take some huge planning.

You ask good questions but you ask them like they’re insurmountable, they’re the most basic questions that could be addressed in design meetings:

  • What happens if a player should die?
    The other player gets an immediate quest to find and treat the other player? Or cooler yet, pick up their body, load onto a horse/carry into town to get treated?
  • Would they both need to restart?
    No, I don’t see why, maybe if they both die then yes. They reload off of their last save. Like Minecraft MP, both players had to rest in bed at the same time then the skip to morning and home save would trigger. This has already been addressed by Mojang but that’s just their take on it. You’re only limited by imagination and technical restraints.
  • How would you even save?
    As above? Saviour Schnapps can apply to both characters or maybe prompts the other to use one of theirs? Maybe you need to make a flask that is double the cost so they ‘pass the saviour schnapps flask’ to each other? Just needs imagination for plausible design
  • What happens when one goes to jail?
    ‘Guilt by association’ maybe? You’re an ‘accomplice’? I can imagine a guard saying ‘EY! And you…aiding and abetting a criminal ay? You can join him in the lockup!’ It could provide the other player an opportunity to post bail like in real life…again more immersion.

I don’t understand the opposition to what is only a gain and no effect to those that don’t want the experience…to me it seems to only be a good thing and the situations I described as only more chances for richer, immersive and entertaining experiences.

I respect your opinion but people keep saying ‘it would break the immersion’ yet no example of HOW is provided. If I was proposing something like World of Warcraft or some other MMO I’d understand, that would be completely incompatible for this game currently. But simply having a friend or two join you on the same SP story campaign sounds amazing to me. What’s the issue I’m missing?

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#8

I bet is wasn’t any good either. Having the multiplayer actually be apart of the world rather than players just jumping into multiplayer is not very easy.

So what your saying is that players need to be stuck together at the hip? What if one player wants to go off for abit? Oh no he can’t because the other player wants to sleep. Or one player decides he wants to murder the entire town so both of you need to suffer, even though you were of shopping.

Seriously how would you implement it? Would you just be able to join any random persons game? What character would you play? Would the quests be based off of the host? Would the second player actually have an impact in the quests? All these questions.

It’s ok saying to put co-op in, but if it can’t be implemented well then what is the point?
Name one good RPG like this game that has even a semi decent co-op.

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#9

Well come on…have some imagination here. I understand criticism but it’s like you’re not even trying to think of solutions here.

Generally yes you’d support each other and work closely but it wouldn’t be necessary and you could split as necessary to farm for resources/achieve your own personal objectives. One would think that they’d piggy back off of Steam’s API and use friend lists. Given the nature of the game and punishing nature of it you’d generally pick a close friend or find someone that would commit to a campaign with you. Believe it or not in a completely separate genre there’s a franchise called Total War which requires major dedication where you can play co-op campaigns together. People are out there who are prepared to commit to an epic saga and actually are prepared to work together for a fun experience.

I can’t deny trolls would exist but I think the nature of this game would cause people to seek friends over being at the mercy of public trolls. On the flipside it’s a format that could cause people to form deep friendships through a deep RP experience like this game. Challenges also carry opportunities - you can’t just focus on the negative and I’d believe the structure of the game would weed out most trolls as there’s plenty of other games requiring less effort and time to grief in.

On the technical side - who knows? you’re just raising questions on what solutions to use rather raising dealbreaking barriers. I can’t see why both cannot have synched quests with synched completions. If you’re playing as a duo to achieve the same goals then why would you not have the same Quests and objectives ticked off at the same time? If it’s a sequel the secondary person could have their own minor personal quest as feature but not necessary.

Is it so narratively impossible for a secondary to simply be a ‘best friend’ that survived a great catastrophe, lost everyone they loved and cared about and simply joined Henry in his quest for revenge? Like…this isn’t hard stuff.

In saying that if you simply wanted MP to be a tacked on feature I think even that would be quite satisfying enough for many to include friends in on an already fun experience.

Again I understand constructive criticism but it seems to be criticism for criticism’s sake - It’s starting to sound like, I don’t like it so it shouldn’t exist, even if I don’t have to touch it. What do you worry about here? What’s the downside? You raise questions but all of these questions seem to have a simple answer. Technically would be a challenge only the Devs could address but even a small bit of imagination and thought seems entirely within the realms of possibility…what’s with the pushback?

Is it that it’s a feature you don’t like so it shouldn’t exist? That doesn’t make sense if there’s an option to completely avoid and not engage with it. And any narrative issues can simply be addressed by ‘MP isn’t canon, only Henry’s story is KCD canon’. Boom plot holes fixed.

I can’t name one and that’s why they should do it. There’s a massive hole in the market that I think people would love if someone would simply do it. I don’t doubt the scripting and narrative dialogue would be a challenge but the Devs are much smarter than me and I don’t think simply putting MP in story RPGs is equivalent to finding Dark Matter - I’m sure it can be done with good planning, resources and implementation.

This is just a suggestion but I’m yet to see any concrete counter to say that it’s a bad one.

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#10

I don’t even want an option. This would ruin a masterpiece and just waste important development time. This game is about single player story. You could ask whether EA make Dead Space with a Co-op mode, but Kingdom Come is not such a game.

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#11

To say that this feature in KCD is incompatible makes no sense. I’ve outlined multiple ways that would be enjoyable to many.

You have also not outlined how it would ruin it. It’s fine to throw claims but at least outline it with a why.

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#12

No, there is nothing to discuss. You have an opinion, but it wouldn’t work for this game and even if it would work, I don’t want it.

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#13

I like co-op games, but not in an open world RPG, it just doesn’t work. It’s not just RPGs either, you see it with most games that feature both single and multiplayer. One or both of them will seriously be lacking. Usually the latter.

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#14

How exactly do you see their combat system “smoothed”? I just keep seeing this and I can’t in all my honesty understand what is not smooth about it.

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#15

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. Co-op and multiplayer are not options I do not want to see in a RPG game since it does ruin immersion. If it is an option then go for it, just not for me.

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#16

You have valid points that you make for co-op games. It has been my personal experience that when a game is marketed as both a single player and co-op game it suffers in one or the another, if not both genre. I do understand the desire for co-op, but it really does not fit into every game design (IMO). Have you played Divinity II, The Original Sin? It is a RPG with co-op as an option, I enjoy the game but the game lost the immersion factor (for me) due to the co-op nature of the mechanics of the squad your put together. I need play solo, without a squad, but the storyline suffers when I do so. Others may disagree but that is my impression. have a great day.

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#17

Thank you glansky.
I understand how co-op could increase the fun-factor, but not all games are primarly made to be fun. For example Super Mario Cart is fun, but a racing simulator is not. It isn’t even meant to be a “game”. And games with a depressive, devastating story aren’t fun too. Single player experiences should focus on what they are and not making everything for everyone.

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#18

Thats the problem with most developers these days, they try to please everyone and result in making a shallow game. Rather than focusing on specific aspects and developing them with more depth. They try to get a wider audience, in doing so they have to dumb down some mechanics and in the process alienate the real fans of the game.

I might go to the PUBG forums and suggest they make it singleplayer aswell.

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#19

Increase the complexity of the game by 80%, and the development effort by 400% to increase the popularity by 15%. Could you have a fun co-op game for this period and this setting? Yes, but the sheer effort to do both versions in one wrapper would never be returned. Look at the reliability issues with the single player version alone. The resources of the company are far from infinite so why focus effort on such a moderate maximum return.

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#20

I think a lot of false assumptions are being made here in the pursuit of purist ideals. I believe MP with story RPG mechanics can be done and that would be a fresh direction. What I suggested originally by tacking on someone who has no narrative relevance would be good enough. I don’t think is going to be some technical nightmare scenario. Truly i think a team that masters the challenge of implementing a narratively relevant co-op experience however will bring the next RPG innovation that makes MP not just feel like empty grindfest sandboxes that typical MMOs carry but something much grander where everyone has some level of agency.

Glansky, funny how you suggest Divinity failed/didn’t work when it’s hailed as an unquestioned critical success? It may not have worked for you but that doesn’t mean it failed completely. I do have it in my library but I’ll look into the effect MP has on the story, but from what I read of the reviews, the opposite was true? Specialized characters used their own strengths in the team to get better dialogue outcomes in game - that would be cool to me.

Ilya - I mean in group situations you have 2 means of tracking targets, using change target while locked which usually picks the wrong guy to look at or using the mouse to face a new target - the issue is that it’s ‘sticky’ to each person making facing new targets difficult. I love KCD’s combat 1 on 1 but group situations feel much more hopeless than they need to be. I know purists will cry ‘but it’s meant to be hopeless’ but honesty, i’d accept struggling to keep up with attacks (which feels like natural difficulty) rather than simply struggling to face a new person (which feels like fake difficulty/failure of mechanics) and is the consistent theme people’s issue with KCD.

Everything else though I can’t really fault. AI seems to lag sometimes - enemies will just freeze on the spot for no reason sometimes…but that will get better with patches/other releases. I notice enemies seem to have unlimited stamina. If I’m on a horse circling them - they seem to be able to sprint for literally forever in full plate mail keeping up, I’m like…yeah…sure…

Chessqueen you talk as if you have any power and come across as arrogant. Opinions are fine but don’t be an ass about it. But if you’d like the same regard in kind, I’m not really sure what drug you’ve found to smoke by suggesting games aren’t meant to be fun. You’re confusing tone with a core concept of fun. Games can be serious but if they’re not fun, they’re a bad game. KCD is serious in many instances but loads of fun. It is an outlet, it is recreation - I do it for fun. It is not my job or responsibility.

A bit disappointing to see such a fearful response to such a simple suggestion. What started off as a simple suggestion is gradually turning into a circle jerk of purist fear mongering for a few. Noone suggested dumbing down any mechanics no changes to anything other than making it possible for someone to play along with you.

But I suggest if you don’t have a constructive point, I would rather you didn’t come just to drop your bile periodically - if you disagree fundamentally and have no point to make other than ‘I don’t like it for “reasons”’ then scroll on and find another thread. Glansky, Ilya, bones and Pongo are probably the only ones who managed to make their point without feeling the need to be condescending or arrogant. There’s no need for toxicity. I’ve seen a few threads on here descend into garbage and I’d rather address that trend early in the thread. Let’s keep the points focused. Thanks to everyone else for your insights.

I will hear anyone out if they make a respectful point. Still not yet heard a convincing reason other than Pongo’s regarding dev resources especially in context with the base level bugs and polish - which comes down to Dev experience level and resourcing. Heck, even if they didn’t do it in the first sequel, I think it would be a worthy goal to shoot for down the line.

I believe the new focus in the genre would have legs particularly if the level pacing was tuned right and amount of quests were there.

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