Troll cave II

[snejdarek]

a government only holds power while the people grant it power.

Exactly my point why we need civilian firearms ownership.

Nazi Gun Ban made it possible for Communist coup to take place as most people were already disarmed.

enemy soldiers

They were soldiers from a country that actively orchestrated communist coup and when, 20 years later, their puppet government tried to cut the strings, they came in hot.

Not the way we understand “allies”.

had the soviet union gone to war with the west your family members would have killed mine and gladly…

I am not sure about the gladly part, but yeah, given that I come from coal mining family they would fight the way they were used to work. If you’ve ever seen black coal mine, you know what I mean.

the Germans were a foreign occupying force… the Czech communist party were not

It was Soviet orchestrated coup which included secret “by accident” elimination of local democratic elites.

not at all . he was born into a communist country he knew no different in his eyes he was serving his country as he is doing now.

He knew that he lives in a country occupied by enemy forces with government put on a very short leash by its foreign masters.

Just to make sure you understand - the primary purpose of the secret service was not spying on foreign countries, but rather keeping eye on fellow Czechs and Slovaks and their political opinions.

Having a mole or two here and there on West was just icing on the cake.

Also how many of them, (and those in the intel community) had a choice in serving. I get the feeling that if they told you, that you were to become an officer, or to become and spy you really had no choice.

You had little choice when it came to general duties, i.e. shut up, work and be quiet. Which included general military service.

You did not need to join the party nor become an active spy/secret service conspirator.

The difference for him would be that he would remain a low key foreign trade official in Bratislava instead of high ranking North Africa/Arabic countries export specialist based in those countries.

putins puppet

I never said he is anyone’s puppet. The problem is, apart from him being active member of the criminal communist establishment, that he may be open to blackmail due to his time in 1980-89 which he still keeps denying.

If he owned up to it, that would be off the table. But then he would never get 30% of the vote.

[SirWarriant]

Lindy Beige should take notes. This guy really knows how to make British propaganda.

[TheDivineInfidel]

Exactly my point why we need civilian firearms ownership.

Nazi Gun Ban made it possible for Communist coup to take place as most people were already disarmed.

regardless of the gun laws a government only holds power while the people grant it . power is an illusory thing .

guns of course help however but it was a very early lesson of Hitlers , he would never gain power without the support of the people .

much the same the communist would never have gained power without significant support of the people , like it lump it , its the truth . Had the Czech people come out in their hundreds of thousands or millions they could have stopped the "coup "

As an example i point to turkey …military coup completely halted by the will of an unarmed population .
As another example i point to the very revolution which was unarmed that took your country back from the communists .

They were soldiers from a country that actively orchestrated communist coup and when, 20 years later, their puppet government tried to cut the strings, they came in hot.

Not the way we understand “allies”.

which your nation supported enough to allow it ,

Just to make sure you understand - the primary purpose of the secret service was not spying on foreign countries, but rather keeping eye on fellow Czechs and Slovaks and their political opinions.

Having a mole or two here and there on West was just icing on the cake.

sounds like any domestic intelligence service in the world too me , maybe just with a slightly heavier hand .

[TheDivineInfidel]

well today the British foreign secretary was asked if the UK would be prepared to join a nulcear strike on north korea in the defence of the US mainland.the answer was yes …we got you bro

[snejdarek]

As an example i point to turkey …military coup completely halted by the will of an unarmed population .

Common soldiers were told they are going on “military exercise” and to hold strategic choke-points, when civilians showed up they were confused and after some time gave up their guns.

That is not military coup, that is amateur hour. One most probably orchestrated by Erdogan himself.

As another example i point to the very revolution which was unarmed that took your country back from the communists .

That was only possible because the entire system in the Warsaw Pact countries has already started falling on itself and the government simply took it as a matter of fact and refused to hold the power with force.

Had the Czech people come out in their hundreds of thousands or millions they could have stopped the "coup "

Of course they also had support of some parts of the society. But most importantly, they had all the guns.

sounds like any domestic intelligence service in the world too me , maybe just with a slightly heavier hand .

Yeah, in 1984 and 2017 UK that is quite possible.

[TheDivineInfidel]

Common soldiers were told they are going on “military exercise” and to hold strategic choke-points, when civilians showed up they were confused and after some time gave up their guns.

That is not military coup, that is amateur hour. One most probably orchestrated by Erdogan himself.

That was only possible because the entire system in the Warsaw Pact countries has already started falling on itself and the government simply took it as a matter of fact and refused to hold the power with force.

no it was possible because the people had enough . they stripped the powerful of their power . and turned out in their thousands .

Of course they also had support of some parts of the society. But most importantly, they had all the guns.

a crowed of 500,000 at the steps of government , defiant , no gun beats that ever .

Yeah, in 1984 and 2017 UK that is quite possible.

most nations have such forces just alot more covert these days and lawful .

[Wenceslaus]

a crowed of 500,000 at the steps of government , defiant , no gun beats that ever .

So… your idea

Hungary 1956 - thousands killed and several times more wounded. All by “allied” units.

[SirWarriant]

a crowed of 500,000 at the steps of government , defiant , no gun beats that ever .

snejdarek:

Peaceful protests only work if the side who are being protested against show restraint. Otherwise they can just be easily gun downed, and if the rest do not have the means of resisting then there is little to nothing they can do.

Case and point

Tiananmen Square protests of 1989

[snejdarek]

Clearly, @TheDivineInfidel doesn’t understand the way dictatorships work.

“Just show up and they’ll turn belly up.”

Maybe that is why he also fails to understand freedom and liberty.

[SirWarriant]

Census Bureau: 44.6% in California Don’t Speak English at Home; 35.6% in Texas;...

How racist of them to even ask.

[SirWarriant]

Professor Claims Math, Algebra And Geometry Promote ‘White Privilege’

[snejdarek]

None of my grandparents speak Czech at home.

[SirWarriant]

What language do they speak then?

[TheDivineInfidel]

Peaceful protests only work if the side who are being protested against show restraint. Otherwise they can just be easily gun downed, and if the rest do not have the means of resisting then there is little to nothing they can do.

Case and point

yes valid example but tianamen square was not large scale enough so it can be squashed with a fair amount of ease .

take a similar example like the kiev example , again the government started shooting but the sheer numbers made it impossible to be a viable tactic without risking international intervention and slaughter thousands upon thousands of your own people in the street which no government would even consider and no military would carry out .

Clearly, @TheDivineInfidel doesn’t understand the way dictatorships work.

“Just show up and they’ll turn belly up.”

Maybe that is why he also fails to understand freedom and liberty.

you fail to understand my point . who makes up the army ? who makes up the police force ? …low paid working class males mostly correct ? yes i know i am .

so the moment the common man turns on the government on mass and by mass here i mean a majority the government loses all power completely . and guns or no guns the government will fall .

guns make it easier yes but if you do not hold popular support you could never overthrow a government with the weapons you have available to you as a civilian .

US being an easy example , 100,000 man militia raises to overthrow the US government all fairly well armed but lack any real popular support …win or lose ? and why

[SirWarriant]

take a similar example like the kiev example , again the government started shooting but the sheer numbers made it impossible to be a viable tactic without risking international intervention and slaughter thousands upon thousands of your own people in the street which no government would even consider and no military would carry out .

Except that has happened multiple times in history. Mao murdered 80 million people, and in his own words “Political power comes out the barrel of a gun”. Cuba, Soviet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam. Dozens examples where thousands were gunned down at one time, and most are too afraid to even show anti government sentiment in public for fear of being sent to a work camp.

without risking international intervention

Which we did in only one of those nations listed above FYI. A powerful nation like China can do what ever the fuck it wants internally, who is going to invade them? No one.

you fail to understand my point . who makes up the army ? who makes up the police force ? …low paid working class males mostly correct ?

In dictatorships it is generally people loyal to the government. And there is generally a struggle going on between two groups, where one group has control of the government and the guns, and the other is oppressed. This is why militarises and police forces had no issue carrying out massacres of their own people in the past. Not to mention people in the military and police often have families to support, and if it came to shooting some dissidents, or having their family hauled off to a work camp, i think most would shoot the dissidents.

Or it just takes a small group in the military or police willing to carry out massacres. Most people in the red army or Whermact weren’t committing mass war crimes, it was smaller groups like the SS, and KGB.

[TheDivineInfidel]

Except that has happened multiple times in history. Mao murdered 80 million people, and in his own words “Political power comes out the barrel of a gun”. Cuba, Soviet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam. Dozens examples where thousands were gunned down at one time, and most are too afraid to even show anti government sentiment in public for fear of being sent to a work camp.

It has in indeed dictators that wish to keep hold of power put the fear of God into its people of a sustained period of time through propraganda and labour camps etc .
But ask yourself why ? Very easy because while the people fear him they will not challenge him , Kim Jong un for example , massive propaganda machine people see him as a god , but if the majority of the country suddenly turned on him , he wouldn’t last very long .

Which we did in only one of those nations listed above FYI. A powerful nation like China can do what ever the fuck it wants internally, who is going to invade them? No one.

I’m Not talking simply invading , international sanctions etc , many other punishments that would render a leader completely fucked internationally and at home .

In dictatorships it is generally people loyal to the government. And there is generally a struggle going on between two groups, where one group has control of the government and the guns, and the other is oppressed. This is why militarises and police forces had no issue carrying out massacres of their own people in the past. Not to mention people in the military and police often have families to support, and if it came to shooting some dissidents, or having their family hauled off to a work camp, i think most would shoot the dissidents.

In dictatorships it is generally people loyal to the government. And there is generally a struggle going on between two groups, where one group has control of the government and the guns, and the other is oppressed. This is why militarises and police forces had no issue carrying out massacres of their own people in the past. Not to mention people in the military and police often have families to support, and if it came to shooting some dissidents, or having their family hauled off to a work camp, i think most would shoot the dissidents.

Or it just takes a small group in the military or police willing to carry out massacres. Most people in the red army or Whermact weren’t committing mass war crimes, it was smaller groups like the SS, and KGB.

"People loyal to the government " correct ! So what happens when people loyal to the government are suddenly the minority ?

Your example of the SS good but shit at the same time , ehat was the role of the SS at home ? To put the fear of God into people , why ? If the people are so unarmed and worthless why go to the effort of making them scared of you ?
Because hitler understood exactly what I’m trying to explain to you ! You cannot control a country without the support of the people , in whatever terms that comes through fear or love . When the people stopping loving you or fearing you , you will
Be toppled .

[snejdarek]

What language do they speak then?

3/4 Silesian. One grandma speaks sometimes Silesian, sometimes Polish, sometimes Czech, mostly depending on who she speaks to.

[snejdarek]

international sanctions etc , many other punishments that would render a leader completely fucked internationally and at home

Worked wonders in North Korea.

"People loyal to the government " correct ! So what happens when people loyal to the government are suddenly the minority ?

Not much as long as they are the only ones with guns and they are willing to use them.

Look at Venezuela nowadays.

If the people are so unarmed and worthless why go to the effort of making them scared of you ?

Because you need them not only to fear, but to obey.

[snejdarek]

take a similar example like the kiev example , again the government started shooting but the sheer numbers made it impossible to be a viable tactic without risking international intervention and slaughter thousands upon thousands of your own people in the street which no government would even consider and no military would carry out

That is not a valid example. Government was holding its ground and at some points used dedicated forces to shoot at the protestors. There was no genuine attempt at brutally clearing out the protest.

Compare that to hundreds of thousands sent to jails, concentration camps and work camps by Nazis as well as Communists in Czechoslovakia.

you fail to understand my point . who makes up the army ? who makes up the police force ? …low paid working class males mostly correct ? yes i know i am .

so the moment the common man turns on the government on mass and by mass here i mean a majority the government loses all power completely . and guns or no guns the government will fall .

Again, look at Venezuela. The police, soldiers and Maduro’s militia are the only ones who currently know that their families get heating, food, water and safety. They see the general population going hungry, thirsty and being open season for criminals.

They very well know that situation will get much worse for them before it gets better for everyone in case the establishment falls. And so they will keep their families warm, fed and safe while the vast majority of their countrymen continue to suffer and die.

Same with North Korea.

100,000 man militia raises to overthrow the US government all fairly well armed but lack any real popular support …win or lose ?

You mean in a country with 2 million soldiers and millions of agents of federal and state government forces?

[SirWarriant]

Sweden 2.0