Any of you guys into Historical Martial arts, what art (s)/manuals?

If so, what art and what manuals do you own or are you interested in?

I seen there was a similar topic from a few years ago and thought I would start another one instead of necro-posting.
Manuals/historical fighting methods

I am mostley interested in KDF (Lietchenauer), so far I have:

Joachim Meyer’s Art of Combat 1570- Translated by Jeffery Forgeng.

Joachim Meyer’s Art of Sword Combat-

The Recital of the Chivalric Art of Fencing of the Grand Master Johannes Liechtenauer

http://www.lulu.com/shop/michael-chidester-and-mike-rasmusson-and-david-rawlings-and-thomas-stoeppler/the-recital-of-the-chivalric-art-of-fencing-of-the-grand-master-johannes-liechtenauer/paperback/product-22410499.html
here is a link to the free pdf, if interested. It covers Psuedo-Peter von Danzig, Ringeck and Dobringer longsword.

(Getting this next) The Art of Swordsmanship by Hans Lecküchner - Translated by Jeff Forgeng

Peter Falkner’s Captain of the Guild - Translated by Christian Tobler

Modern books:
Cutting with The Medieval Sword -Michael Edelson

Fighting with the German Longsword - Christian Tobler

AHA German Longsword Study Guide - Keith Farrel

2 Likes

There was some discussion in that other thread on Lietchenauer/KDF only being a longsword art, here is a few masters/practioners of Lietchenauer tradition/KDF that cover multiple weapons:

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Peter_Falkner
Peter Falkner was a 3 time captain of the Marxbruder guild and has his own version of Lietchenauer’s verse. His work covers longsword, messer/falchion , dagger , poleaxe, spear, and staff.

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paulus_Kal

Paulus Kal wrote the Fellowship of Lietchenauer list ( Geselschaft), he covers grappling, dagger, messer, sword and buckler and longsword.

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Andre_Liegniczer

Andre Lignitzer, one of the names on the Geleschaft. He covers grappling, dagger, sword and buckler, and sword.

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Joachim_Meyer

Joachim Meyer, last of the Leichtenauer tradition , possible ex member of the Marxbruder guild and member of the Freifechter guild. His Rappier (more of a sidesword, not really rapier) and dagger are influenced from the Italians (probably Marozzo). He covers Longsword, dagger, sidesword (Rappier), Dussack, quarter staff, wrestling and poleaxe.

There are more these are just a few examples.

Also , from the verse:

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Johannes_Liechtenauer

Young knight, learn
to love god and revere women;
2 thus your honor will grow.
Practice knighthood and learn
3 the Art that dignifies you,
and brings you honor in wars.
4 Be a good grappler in wrestling;
lance, spear, sword, and messer
5 handle manfully,
and foil them in your opponent’s hands.
6 Strike in and hasten forth;
rush to, let it hit, or go by.
7 Thus those with wisdom, the ones who
are revered, will envy him.
8 This you should grasp:
All arts have length and measure.

1 Like

I have Leckuchner, both Meyer texts, a variety of Renaissance fencing manuals (mostly for rapier).
In addition to a little work on polearms from Meyer, we have looked briefly at the Jeu de la Hache - a French pollaxe treatise for armoured combat.

However, the most relevant to medieval fencing is the earlier Walpurgis Fechtbuch (shelf no. I:33)
This is a mid-late C14th manual for civilian fencing with sword and buckler. It presents a student in civilian clothing fencing against a ‘Priest’ tutor, and is a fully developed system with a coherent set of instruction - rather than a novel ‘testing’ of ideas, it probably represents a record of an established method of learning sword and buckler. It is the earliest known of the fencing manuals/fightbooks.

1 Like

Ive only glanced through a manual on I:33 (Dr. Forgeng’s translation, I believe) , its much more difficult to really understand than most KDF based stuff.

Ive really been meaning to pick up Forgeng’s translation of Leckuchner but have not got around to it yet…mainly due the fact that I had a few too many drinks and made some questionable purchases that i need to straighten out.
Including Clement’s books (which went in the trash) and this https://www.freelanceacademypress.com/artpractice16thcGermanFencing.aspx , I dont think its trash so it wont be going in the trash but Rappier/ sidesword is not really my cup of tea. Leckuchner is my next purchase though.

roland warzecha
nuff said

1 Like

Not really into reading stuff. I like punching people into face with feder, its more fun. Sometimes its better if they have a fencing mask, because they dont pass away and I can punch them longer.


Dont ever mention that name again. I dare you, I double dare you…

Why use Feders instead of a blunt blade? Feders are like the limp noodles of the sword world. Real men use sharp blades and fight like roland warzecha.

1 Like

roooooooooooooo
laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
nnnnnnnnnnnnnd

warrrrrrrrrrrrr
zeeeeeeeeeeeee
ccccccccccccccch
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

<3 ily too

1 Like

Oh god, this thread is like spiders nest. Better to burn it. Roland sucks. Feder FTW!

1 Like

We just cant take advice from pure sport fighters with Meyer avatars. If you were into real swords and ditched the electronic timers we might listen.

Not giving you an advice and not a pure sports fighter. Pfff, these HMB bookworms…

1 Like

But only sports fighters use feders . Joachim Meyer used feders and was purely sport ,to a point that he was terrified of real combat with thrusts.

What does “HMB” stand for?

Meyer uses thrusts for his “weapons” - Polearms, dagger, rappier (sidesword), and the ‘basic trainer’ for sword - Dussack. He doesn’t encourage the use of the thrust for his federised longswords, but they are sporting ‘tools’ at this point. He does use a plunge cut in several places even for longsword (and the thrust is only a ‘plunge cut’ which hits with both edges), and threatens with the point to force a disengage at others…

He also states quite clearly you don’t thrust “Germans”, but foreigners (in his case “Italians”) are fair game.

This is because the target is predominantly the head, murder of your countrymen is illegal, and head/face protections for the school setting and ‘blossefechten’ are not a thing. No one would thrust the face in these circumstances. A very flexible ‘unedged’ sword can quite safely (although not by our standards) be used for cuts and strikes with the flat to the head. As can the leather Dussack. The other weapons are for war, or ‘for real’ self defence, and the training reflects that, though may only use thrusts in earnest vs a ‘wall’ target, rather than your opponent.

If you look to Leckuchner, roughly 3 quarters of his plays end with the point to the face, upper chest or throat. Some are thrusts, others are ‘displacements’ which require an aggressor to impale themselves to come at you. More suited to bar-room brawls, than the ‘noble arts’ which longsword was roughly 100 years later, but not very dissimilar to the Rappier.

1 Like

I was just trolling. I am of the mindset that Meyer was not just a sport fighter. I also believe he did intend for students to train thrusts with the longsword but uses a systematic approach with the other weapons in later parts of his book to implement it.

I have read quite a bit of Roger Norling’s articles over on HROARR and find his info pretty convincing regarding Meyer. I will say that after reading a few of the manuals on German longsword that I prefer the older traditional stuff but see Meyer as a great resource to really understanding the theory of earlier KDF works.

I wonder when this law was implemented considering Peter Falkner was only about 60 or so years before Meyer ,yet he incoporated thrusts in his manual . Falkner was also a tourny fighter and 3 time captain of the Marxbruder fencing guild.

Btw yes I have avatar with Meyers picture, however hes not my favourite one. I dont like his idea of zufechten (at least I believe its his) as it (in my understanding) is in direct contradiction with idea of hiding moves as long as possible. Btw one of favourite is hs3227 so called codex wallerstein. But there are very simple pictures… :smiley:

1 Like

Cutting up peasants is pretty cool. I have not got a chance to checkout Codex Wallerstein though.

Meyers system is not 100% Leichtenauer, its more like 75% Lietchenauer mixed with Marozzo dagger and sidesword and a few other influences.

Here are a few articles on Meyer’s system from Roger Norling.

Meyer’s masters:
https://hroarr.com/article/meyers-masters/

Bolognese influence on German Rappier/sidesword:
https://hroarr.com/article/meyerozzo-the-influences-of-the-bolognese-method-in-german-rappier/

Marozzo and Meyer dagger comparison:
https://hroarr.com/article/meyer-and-marozzo-dagger-comparison/

History of Joachim Meyer’s treatise to Otto Von Solms.
https://hroarr.com/article/the-history-of-joachim-meyers-treatise-to-von-solms/

Norling goes into why Meyer did not include thrusts in his Longsword instruction then goes over why people should still incorporate thrusts.
https://hroarr.com/article/doing-what-we-are-told-or-what-we-are-taught/

Overall, I find Meyer to be very interesting and a great source for understanding earlier KDF masters.

I would love to learn gilma

1 Like

I’m a early XV century reenactor, I mainly study on Flos Duellatorum but recently i’m studying i33 and talhoffer

1 Like