(Non-KCD) Better late than never

Off-topic
#41

I tend to disagree. If your really try to do the best for immersion cutscenes should be done in first person as well. You should never be able to left your body and fly over the scene like a ghost. This is one of the worst immersion breaker I could think of. One of the biggest advantages of third person is it’s continuity. You can make a consistent game with great cutscenes because the perspective stays always the same. Some first person games tried to avoid those immersion-breaking by just not implementing a lot of cutscenes like for example Half Life 2. Others like Dark Messiah of Might and Magic or Skyrim offered cutscenes in first person and they did well so. The problem with Skyrim’s narrative were not the cutscenes but the tech behind the game and the poor writing.

So if you ask me I strongly vote against third person or overview perspective cutscenes. Sure, they’re nice to watch but they’re also counterproductive in a first person game which has a focus on immersion. And just think about VR. It’s really akward to watch a third person cutscene with an Oculus Rift while you play the game in “real” first person and feeling the “presence” Steam and Oculus are talking about.

There are sacrifices to make when developing a first person game if you ask me. One of these sacrificies are cinematic third person cutscenes like in Witcher 2 and other games. They just don’t fit here. If you want them in your game because you think they enhance the narrative and characters of your game you should really think about transforming the whole game to a third person perspective. See it like that: first person is about BEING the character in the game while third person is about WATCHING the character in the game (still with interaction of course). Third person cutscenes are all about watching and not about being… :wink:

#42

Play it with a mouse and keyboard on PC. It’s perfect like that. And on PC the axis is invertable IIRC (at least in the Steam version I’ve played). :wink:

#43

You certainly made the right choice, and implementing the third-person view was worth the extra effort.
Regarding KC I’m really excited that you are using CryEngine, since it delivers the best first-person experience with full body view. Skyrim had first-person as well, but not being able to see your own body just doesn’t give you the same feeling.

#44

Well, let’s agree to disagree. I can be perfectly immersed in the game even if it changes perspective for cutscenes. Deus Ex 1 had dialogues and cutscenes in third person, and it was the most immersive game of its time and one of my favourite games of all time. Same with Deus Ex Invisible War or Human Revolution. But other games which keep first person all the time (Dishonored, New Vegas…) are fine too. And so are third person like Witcher. But I disagree that mix of both cannot work…it can, at least for me.

1 Like
#45

Of course it can work meaning that the game is still enjoyable. But that doesn’t mean that it is the best possible solution. If your strongest point for first person was immersion in the first place (which is in fact the case here with Warhorse imo) it wouldn’t make much sense to take away from that immersion by making third person cutscenes.

Your examples are also a bit weak because the first Deus Ex was developed in another time with way less technical possiblities and Human Revolution was probably done with third person cutscenes because Square Enix wanted some fance, eye-candy visuals to gain mass-appeal (could of course also be intentional but at least it’s a valid guess).

And none of these games were made for VR tech. It’s a complete different experience (I’ve already tried the Oculus Rift so you can believe me here) and the whole point of it is “real” immersion aka “presence”. It makes absolutely no sense to make a game as realistic and lifelike as possible to create the perfect illusion from both artistic and technical points of view to convince the player that he really IS the character in the game to just take this illusion away by force every ten minutes.

To me implementing third person cutscenes in KCD is something along the lines of “two steps forward, one step back” and absolutely unnecessary. On the opposite, without a publisher forcing them to implement eye-candy cutscenes for the masses they have the unique chance to really create a game completely developed with first person immersion in mind. And as I said (and you for yourself), there are various example with good first person cinematics: Dishonored, Fallout, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Half Life 2, Crysis, Far Cry 3, Thief,… I see no reason why they shouldn’t try to make the cutscenes first person as well, sacrificing some “movie flair” for the full immersive experience. :wink:

(The “let’s agree to disagree” proverb is quite strange on a forum imo… Isn’t its purpose to discuss stuff topics and share arguments?)

#46

For VR, yes, game should probably stay in first person all the time. I didn’t really consider it, since I kind of doubt that VR implementation will be that great anyway…there will be much more important priorities in development, and best VR games will be ones made specifically for VR and VR only. And KCD is not such a game.

I simply like all three approaches equally, full FPP, full TPP or mix of the two, so I will not mind any cutscenes if they are well shot, written, interactive etc. So you are not going to convince me that one is inherently superior to the other, that’s why let’s agree to disagree :smiley:
I do not assume I can convince you either, anyway. Subjective preferences and all that.

#47

Dude, are you serious? You missed a masterpiece!

Look at this :wink:

Just started my game, tested the option and made this screenshot.
It works. Try it for yourself.

Yeah, totally! It’s a shame that the game didn’t get the attention and praise it deserves. Even in the list of inspirations for Kingdom Come it has not been mentioned for anything. It’s a hidden gem. This guy Paul you’re talking to is the best example, he mentions features which Dark Messiah already had before these games he’s talking about were released.
Since I read about it the first time, one year before release, I knew I want it. Bought the Collector’s Edition right away and devoured it. It’s one of my favorites because of all the things you mentioned and I really love the footsteps sound and many many more things. And that’s also why I’m here, because Kingdom Come got the cool stuff, intense 1st-person combat and body awareness, as well. Also, Dark Messiah offered something new for its time (the 1st-person combat system). Unfortunately, most people like to buy the nth rehash of CoD and such every year, instead of giving something new and unique a try.

Who knows, maybe Arkane could have made a sequel if the game had sold better. I guess, we’ll never know. Maybe they’ll make a sequel one day.

This might interest you, found it the other day when I was looking for videos for the RPG thread

Didn’t know that you could do all this stuff. Pretty impressive (except for the silly long jumps).
:smiley:

I don’t know, why should he play it on console? Console version is censored garbage. :wink:

I’ve installed it from my retail DVD and applied all patches. It works flawlessly.

#48

I still have a copy of the game. I may have to grit through the controls just to experience the awesome that you guys are talking about. Beautiful screenshot BTW :wink:

Also sadly, the $3 copy I bought was for the Xbox 360. But, from what @LordCrash said, I think he understood that, and is recommending that I go ahead and grab a PC copy, which I may very well do. Especially since he said he thinks the Y axis might actually be changeable on PC :smiley:

#49

I just looked it up. The Steam PC version indeed offers the option to invert the vertical mouse axis. :slight_smile:

#50

Look at my pic. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

…

#51

It’s too small due to your high resolution… :smiley:

But yes… :wink:

#52

Really? You can’t click on it to enlarge?

btw: I lowered the resolution. Was way higher before (Downsampling). :slight_smile:

Here you can see what has been changed:

Did you read that? The console version came 2 years later!
And they got nothing better to do than to censor it.

#53

"All other splatter-effects, like the chopping off arms and legs or the cutting of the Goblins in halves, were removed."

Well damn! :smiley:

Looks like that was a waste of 3 dollars. If I can’t chop goblins in half, then I say “No thank you, sir!”

I will pick up a copy on Steam and revel in Goblinostronomy!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!

Ahem, sorry…

#54

[quote=“Cerberus, post:52, topic:9924”]
Really? You can’t click on it to enlarge?[/quote]
Ahem, yes. Haven’t tried that tbh… :stuck_out_tongue:

The Steam verison I bought a few days ago is uncensored, even the German version. :wink:

#55

For that “total 1st person” suggestion up there… it sounds somewhat extreme, don’t you think? (I know, probably not, but anyway…) :slight_smile:

If the game was in full 1st person, it would for example kill about half of the purpose for wich the complex layered system of dressing customization was created. Of course, in part it has its purely practical side wich helps you combine your very own idea of armor combination, but just like with any other game it also serves the visual purpose of customizing your character for many people who are playing it. And why else would you do that then, if you actually can’t see the character in the game other than in a small preview window in the inventory and through a very limited 1st person downside view? That’s one pretty flushed away character customization option.

That’s why, contrary to weapons, the clothes/armor of the main char in Dark Messiah had so little space in the game. That game was really tailored for the 1st person (and it’s a great one, one of my favourites as well), but doing the same for KCD would seriously limit the options this game has.

The 1st person gameplay/3rd person storytelling compromise doesn’t hurt a game in any way. It actually (if done well) can offer a perfect balance of the best from both worlds (movie-like narrative + actuall-being-there-like gaming experience). I also played games like Deus Ex 1 or Human Revolution a couple of times and it never even occured to me that this could be inferior to a full 1st person. Just another approach that works just as well (if not better really, but that’s already pretty subjective, I suppose).

You mentioned you had a chance to try Oculus Rift, which is probably what makes you so enthusiastic about it (well, definitely good for you!), but how many people would seriously be playing KCD with a fancy piece of hardware like this anyway? My guess is there would be definitely more people playing it on any of those two consoles alone than those who use even Oculus Rift on top of all that on all platforms combined.

#56

[quote=“PhanTom_CZ, post:55, topic:9924”]it would […] kill about half of the purpose for wich the complex layered system of dressing customization was created.
[/quote]

No, the purpose was to save work and time because Warhorse is such a small team.
Customizing your character’s clothes in the same way is just an side effect.

1st-Person Dialogue
Will cutscenes be pre-rendered or rendered real-time?
#57

Don’t get me wrong: personally I think 3rd person is better suited for an RPG like that (for the various reasons you listed). But this is a first person game by choice and so why not making the best out of it? Either you take 3rd person with its strenghts and weaknesses or you take 1st person with its strenghts and weaknesses. A mix up is just a bad compromise imo, not knowing what you really want to achieve.

I don’t have a problem with armor I cannot see all the time. It’s not really important to me. The four layers of clothing is there for evey NPC as well and not only for the main character if I understand the system correctly. And of course you could just watch down to see your body and armour. First person cutscenes don’t limit the options of the game, it just prevents you from seeing yourself (your character) apart from the inventory screen. But as I said, you have to make sacrificies: what do you want with your game? What’s your primary goal? Immersion? Or fancy eye-candy stuff? And it seems that you don’t think that first person cutscenes can’t be done well. I tend to disagree here. Of course they can be done well, they just serve another purpose. They try to enhance your experience as “being” the character, as living through his eyes. Third person cutscenes try in fact to be more like a movie. :wink:

And I still think that 3rd person cutscenes are a bad idea and I delivered good reasons for it while you people just say something like “I played Deus Ex. I liked the game.” Maybe you should consider that first person cutscenes in Deus Ex would have even been better? I mean Deus Ex was a great game but tbh, not for its cutscenes but for its gameplay and i’s choice and consequence systems and stuff.

#58

You somehow forgot to quote the phrase “half of”, which I didn’t write just by a chance. Although I get it. A “third of” might have been more appropriate.

If that “fancy eye-candy stuff” was as unimportant as you make it sound, we would be still playing mostly just text-based games like the original Wasteland today. Do you think that Brian Fargo is developing Wasteland 2 in a full graphical in-game environment only because it’s trendy right now? People have eyes and they just like to watch stuff. :smiley:

#59

Maybe I overlooked it because I’m tired. Going to bed now. Later!

btw: quote fixed

#60

Just as a sidenote, while Dark Messiah was nice and had visible body, if we are to be precise, then FEAR already had visible body a year before Dark Messiah. I played both.
I mentioned Crysis because KCD runs on its engine, and in Crysis not only was the body visible, but hands actually picked up items, which I do not think was the case in Dark Messiah (though I might be mistaken, do not really remember anymore).

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