Simple change, Headbob

Gameplay
#61

To summarize it (at least for me) - there are 2 main threads in this thread

  1. is the head-bob real ?!

  2. how to use it in game for better immersion ?

re first -
there is long & heavy scientific paper re this http://goo.gl/z2wOdX
(e.g. figure 6 - A The head fixation point (HFP) was defined as the point where the head roll axis intersects during compensatory pitch rotation and vertical translation of the head, and was estimated by triangulation. The head fixation distance (HFD) isthe distance from the subject to HFP.)

As already someone said - it is real, but brain compensates for the heaviest shaking + it depends on many other factors (speed, physical build, ‘composure’ ) - e.g. i personally know a martial arts master (with some 9 toan in Chan-Shaolin-Si & Dju-Su Kung-Fu) and he is actually really ‘sliding’ all the time - on other hand i remember a guy who was always walking as very drunk marine on the boat in a storm


Also the best way how to see the world from someone elses PoV is probably ‘google glass’ - i looked up some videos and in some cases they were really shaky ( = nauseating for the viewer), in other cases the person was again almost sliding (e.g. http://goo.gl/8dyzSD)


re second -
there are 2 links in one of my previous posts in which you can read that the immersion feel differs from person to person - one needs story, another correct lighting + music, another perfect implementation of somersault, or headbob or hair-nose
 ( i got immersed probably too much with Fallout2, Okami and Deus Ex - to name the few - and there wasn’t headbob in any of these (?)

So for me - i would be happy if the game would have other (more important) realistic parts implemented (graphics, AI + their interaction, story, atmosphere, sound, dialogues, realistic dog, 
);
what we are discussing here is teeny-tiny part of the game mechanics and i do not think that someone will try to market properly implemented ‘head bob’ as one of the hallmarks of realistic approach of the game.

But if someone will make the argument that the realistic head movements will help sell 1000 copies more than if the game will implement just sliding ( = the cost of implementing will be covered) - ok (but i do not think so).

Meaning - there are much more important parts of the game that shall assure your full / proper immersion, ‘head butt’ is at the end of such list (at least for me)

#62

Nope. It does not. Because we are not physical moving with a static image on a screen, the autonomous correction is bypassed and we end up with a thoroughly distorted image detached from our reality - hence the motion sickness reports. It’s unnatural and anti-immersive.

our brains DO adjust and they WILL, GO AND PROVE IT TO YOURSELF :slight_smile: nothing more can say to sway your mind, for it is fixed on what you believe. You will just have to find out for yourself, or keep lying to yourself, either way does not worry me. nice chatting though dude lol who knew a head bob could cause such controversy.

#63

If people realy need headbob in game why not nod your head while playing? no need to chang mechanics.

2 Likes
#64

Actually I’m going to go with @rustypup here. Your brain adjusts because your head is physically moving. It’s a gyroscope. It wouldn’t work on something in front of you. Oh, and for your condescending comments, I don’t think we are any more set in our ways than you are. We are trying to persuade you but if you don’t agree that’s fine with me, just stop with the condescending.

#65

I went and did a paint diagram blue lines are field of vision and red is the field of view through approx 1/2cm + slit. Now view restriction will change alot pending on style of helmet as some will place the slit closer to the eyes than others but on a tower helmet where it is only as close and your nose is long it is a considerable reduction to view. If you see my diagram and still wish to say that it had as good as no impact on view I would recomend wearing a helmet yourself or watching a Battle of Nations vid and making notes of how many peeps hit their own team because they cannot see who they are hitting.

#66

I just did a quick search on great helms and none of the ones I saw had a strait vertical front. They all had a bend of some sort at the nose, allowing the slits to rest closer to the eyes I believe. I would like to see where you saw someone say it has no impact on the view. I didn’t read anything like that. Who cares about the great helm though because it was not widely used by the time period that the game takes place in.

I don’t think this is the right thread for this discussion.

#67

Shouldn’t we consider headbobing on horseback rather than on foot?

#68

You have head bob when you are riding a horse and when you walk with your feet.

#69

I referred to somebody who claimed the vertical bop would be compensated by bending your knee which makes absolutely no sense because if anything you would get even lower and if you are bending your knee while putting your weight on the respective leg, you aren’t walking but sneaking or something. The part after that statement was basically to explain you diagram and go through the phases of walking to show that the leg bending is not for compensation purposes. I elaborate on this because what I wrote kinda reads like a contradiction.

What is your medical degree?

That’s simply a wrong assumption, it starts with the the brain being responsible for compensation - it is not! You compensate with your eyes. Compensating with you brain would include cutting the boarders of your field of vision and then there’d be the question where the transition is between a steady vision when walking and bouncy vision when running or why the brain doesn’t cut the vision when you turn your head? The optic nerve causing a blind spot in our vision that we don’t notice most of the time is something completely different, because we depend on being able to notice positional changes, which is what head bopping basically is.

This is actually why chickens (and any other bird) bop their heads, they are missing the muscles that control our eyes, that’s why they compensate completely with their necks and try to keep things in a single frame in between pulling the neck up with the body. In before somebody yelling “See? We aren’t chickens!” - it’s a different kind of head-bopping. So when we’re walking our eyes compensate the little disturbances, the ones that are so annoying when watching videos from body cams, but they can’t compensate the movement that changes the position of the head, they can’t compensate that the angle in which you look at everything is changed and neither can the brain, or yes it can - it’s called short-term memory and tells us what the angle has been moments before.

Just to make this clear: I absolutely don’t care if head bopping is in the game or not, I only care about people telling wrong things and stating them as facts!

1 Like
#70

None whatsoever outside of copious amounts of research and personal interest.

[quote=“Fimbul, post:69, topic:15091”]
The optic nerve causing a blind spot in our vision that we don’t notice most of the time is something completely different[/quote]

No. It isn’t. Part and parcel of the same process. The brain, the construction of the eye, the muscles controlling the eye, the optic nerve and every other part of the system are complicit in resolving these issues without conscious input. We don’t consciously fill in the blind spot in exactly the same way we don’t consciously focus or ignore this “head-bobbing” issue. It is unconscious, automatic.

How then is the disruptive, and obviously fake, motion’s inclusion in a cRPG “immersive”?

1 Like
#71

indeed but a small amount of movement is fine by me, not moving at all is more annoying to me than a bit of headbobbing. It should be very non intrusive to your character, that goddamn screen shake from battleifeld is ridiculous and just utterly annoying, especially from explosives, even through the ground.

1 Like
#72

Headbob 
 of course should be in game. I’m not bobbing my head in the chair I’m sitting in and it’s a natural movement during walking. Granted, the brain will attempt to correct for it in real life. But so it does when it experiences headbob on screen. Call it immersive.

And please Warhorse, support TrackIR and FaceTrackNoIR.

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

#73

Watch 6:36 of the 8 min trailer, your character is floating around

#74

No mandatory headbob. You might like it, but personally I like to not get seasick. Also, when you yourself walk, does your vision bounce up and down? No, of course it doesn’t, you’ve been walking all your life and your neck muscles and eyeball muscles automatically compensate. If headbob is in the game, it needs to be off as default, and people like you who have a weird idea of realism can still have the option to turn it on.

#75

Agreed, it should be optional for those who want realism in game and not be floating around like ghosts. And for the weak stomachs gore should also be best let optional.

#76

Okay, here’s a test I’ve noticed works quite well:
Optimal environment is a hallway where you can take a few long strides and that has a door at one end. Open the door about half way, so that you can see what’s beyond the door and at the same time can visually focus on the doors edge. The other side of the door should also have a fix-point which is almost or barely covered by the door, like a poster for instance.
Now go to the other end of the hallway and start walking towards the door.

  • you should walk straight, obviously
  • your should focus on the doors edge
  • you should make long strides to amplify the effect
    You should notice that the fix-point beyond the door (or parts of it) vanishes and reapears along the doors edge.
    If you don’t I call bullshit!
    The whole effect is easily noticable without any such setup, but depth of field makes it even more obvious.

Another, even simpler test: Stand straight in front of a mirror and now stand on one leg and then on the other, look where your head is and see that it moves sideways when you shift your weight. Lo and behold, what weird idea of reality!

Sorry for being so adamant about this, but I can’t help but cringe when something completely natural and observable is called unrealistic


1 Like
#77

Perspective is shifting. The image is not bobbing and you are still receiving a fluid image.

I don’t think you quite get the issue here, but you’re certainly trying really hard to prove something.

2 Likes
#78

Yes, there is a slight movement of field of vision when you walk. SLIGHT. Whenever headbob is implemented in games it’s like you’ve got balloons tied under your feet, excessively amplifying the effect. When walking naturally, or even running for some people, the movement of field of vision is so slight as to be un-noticeable unless you are looking for it. When a computer game does it, it’s like your 3-axis gimballed eyeballs have been replaced by fixed-mounting cameras and you’ve got a limp. It is unrealistic, not in the sense that it doesn’t occur in real life, but in the sense that it’s way too exaggerated. See also http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UncannyValley

#79

Rustypup is correct here. While your head physically moves in all directions, your eyes compensate to the movement and keeps its focus on whatever you are looking at. In terms of video games, this would be like countering the head bob movement of a game by moving your mouse to keep your point of focus in the center of the screen perfectly. If you dip or move to the side enough, the perspective of the objects you are focusing on can change. At a normal walking pace, the change is small enough on large objects that you won’t notice it. Objects where small changes in perspective are easily noticeable like your doorway example you’ll notice.

The general problem people have is that head bob in games is very unnatural implementation wise. It is like keeping your eyes unfocused and forced dead panned perfectly forwards (or focused on an object attached to your head). Your eyes try their best to keep your center of attention in the middle of your vision, head bob in games typically does not do this and makes it hard for your eyes to keep focus on what you were trying to focus on on your monitor. This is typically why some people get sick from it.

1 Like
#80

It is like keeping your eyes unfocused and forced dead panned perfectly forwards (or focused on an object attached to your head).

Exaggerated, zombie-like headbob fits your description best.
But we’re talking slight headbob, as experienced naturally during walking.
Leaving it out would make your movement through the game appear like a ghost.
Slight headbob, apart from mimicking natural movement best, is also the perfect way to stop people from rushing through the game.

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