Discussion about MMO design

Candidly? The fact that you have MMO players interested at all should be considered a good thing. I’m not sure I understand why it seems people are so insistent upon dogging out the MMO players that do turn up and STAY once they learn it’s standalone.

I mean, seriously, it’s not like WH is going to change their mind, so the conversation is no threat to any of you who support single player. It’s not even as if it hurts this community or WH In any way to HEAR the input of MMO players… particularly when the psychographic of the playerbase is among the highest on the influencer scale in the entire gaming industry (ref: The NPD Group, Gartner, etc; I’d link, but you’d only hit a $2k+ subscription page).

It is GOOD for WH to hear that MMO players are interested. It gives them insight that they can actively market into the base and very likely acquire more support.

Do none of you understand that trouncing MMO players in name of “Don’t change my game, brah!” is not only a complete non-starter (they can’t - the decision is made), it’s pretty much ensuring that every opening that early adopter and influencers from the MMO base wind up with the impression that “the game may be interesting, but the community is so rabid that I can’t see it as a place I could enjoy going to talk about things”.

Maybe that doesn’t matter to you… but to be blunt, it really should; particularly if you want to see this game get more interest and exposure outside it’s niche. (Perhaps you don’t?)

~shakes head~

Wanting this game to remain single-player as Warhorse specifically said it was meant to be in the Kickstarter itself does not mean we all hate multiplayer or MMO games. Some of us enjoy them depending on what they are.

On the flipside, there’s no reason you can’t enjoy a single-player game if it’s done well.

Nobody is trying to run MMO players off the forum that I can see. The only real criticism about MMO players comes when they insist on continuing their demands that Warhorse make this game multiplayer just to appease them.

And please don’t pretend a single-player game can’t gain enough interest without a segment of MMO players behind it.

It’s kind of like what Daniel Vavra said recently about the whole Gamer Gate controversy: he wants to be able to make the game he wants to make without people screaming at him left and right about what they think the game should or shouldn’t have. There are suggestions, then there are demands from people who refuse to listen to explanations about why something is or isn’t going to happen in the game.


There’s a pretty big difference between “I wish it were”, or even “why don’t you…?” and “MAKE IT SO.” I think you’re missing the point that having people show up and know it’s standalone still be (a) interested in it and (b) willing to indicate their interest in a “far future”, or yes, even try to lobby for what they want, is not a bad thing. Ever.

As to the second paragraph, you infer that, but that is not what I said. It is a fact that MMO players have the highest level of cross-genre influence in gaming. To say that doesn’t hold import is simply an erroneous statement.

But beyond all of that, it really doesn’t need to be (or have to be) one of those “us and them” scenarios; but it sure seems like everyone here takes any mention along the lines of, “Hey, you know, I’d really like to see this as an MMO one day” as some kind of “threat”.

Now, you and I both know it isn’t, and we know why it isn’t. So why the pretense just to trounce others?

Hell, even those who DO come in “demanding” either wind up accepting what is or going away on their own. It seems rather counterproductive to “supporting the game company” to make sure they go away with a chapped arse.

As for Vavra being upset that people who game (or publishers or game journalists or whomever) have an opinion and are happy to share it, well, that’s kind of the culture of the industry and it has always been so. Even for the indies. I guarantee you he isn’t getting HALF the flood that is common across the industry. Not saying, “deal with it”, more like, “Dude, this is just how it is. Gamers are heavily engaged by nature and while that means good things for you, it also comes with its fair share (more than?) of serious baggage.”

All I’m saying is that even the avid MMO players carry value (both current and potential future) and no one is doing Warhorse any favors in obsessively gangbanging them when they show up saying the (inevitable) same thing.

I think you and I agree that there is a difference between “I wish” and “DO EET MAN!” but I also think that isn’t something that most here seem to pay much attention to (or care about). I also think that, while wanting to “protect the dude you admire and the game/company you’re interested in” is a very cool thing, setting a tone of acidity and anger if/when new peeps aren’t automatically in lockstep with popular community perspective is kind of unrealistic (at best) and detrimental (at worst).

Of course that’s just my perspective as a new member here myself… so I don’t necessarily expect anyone who has been here any length of time to “get it”. But that’s kind of why I’m calling it out… to not know how to comes across is one thing… to not care, quite another.

Most of you don’t strike me as the “not care” type… so I’m mentioning it. Not to be “negative”, not really even to point fingers, really… more to just say, “Hey, I can’t believe you’d do this if you really could see it the way new people do.”

Mind you, I don’t speak for all new people (stars, may I never be asked to do so)… but this OP seems to have a similar experience and I’ve done a bit of searching and it seems to be a real pattern.

So again… just mentioning it.

/tips hat

it’s not a pattern because a pattern is consistently repeated events. it’s more like a rare occurrence. as to why it happens. it happens because people often put stock or investment into a game they either did not bother to research or are hoping desperately would change to fit their own individual vision.

that seems to be a habit cultivated and even encouraged by the likes of bioware. that’s their modus operandi in fact. they lack their own specific tastes and visions, and regularly capitulate to the wants and desires of those they perceive to be the majority, or use design by committee development methods to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

indie developers and those who use kickstarters tend to be those who do not want to have to bend to the demands of social justice warriors and feminists, for example. because those demands are very similar to the corrupting and creativity blunting influence of large publishers.

in this forum you have people who are very wary of these forces at work and then sometimes you get those people who are trained by companies like bioware to expect this type of capitulation. so the ensuing conflict is a result of culture shock experienced by the visitor hoping the game will change if he screams loud enough.

if what they’re “lobbying for” has been flat out denied by the developers, continuing to lobby for it can be seen as disrespectful and a nuisance.

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I read “wary” as “assuming” and think that’s actually the crux of the matter.

I’m really not sure what to say to the thought that being interested in a game enough to offer requests/feedback or lobby for what you want is “disrespectful” or “a nuisance”, particularly given that is precisely the culture and method that the game industry has supported via outlets like these forums for as long as they have existed.

Finally, I find your examples telling… perhaps it is simply lingering sensitivity to recent events that causes this? As for “not being a pattern”, you may wish to go review the forum over all… I did and that’s why I posted here at all.

Or not. Just trying to lend the perspective that a “veteran” forum user long ago lost. Feel free to consider or ignore as you like.

If you want to see a douche community, watch Star Citizen forums when the developers present any progress.

Community douchiness is directly proportional to it’s raw size. That’s about it. Then you can get educated douches or illiterate douches, depending on the topic it revolves around, but more people = more dicking around, even from the same people who were normal guys before it grew (the reason being that with more people there’s less room for them for reasonated discussion, and more troll baiting).

There is definitely a “protect Warhorse’s vision” element in some cases. That’s not something I’ll deny.

But what I think has led to some of the perception of SP people vs. MP/MMO people is that in some cases (not trying to define it with a ratio) people have come in not really clear on what Warhorse’s vision is because they haven’t read everything in the Kickstarter, thinking KCD is or will be something it’s not (at this point).

To be fair, @phydra, you did this very thing with your topic about not realizing RPG did not equal MMORPG. In further fairness you pledged and said you would keep your pledge (King is a pretty high tier, after all), but you hoped Warhorse would have an MMO-favorable publisher come in if KCD is successful enough (which strikes me as a very odd thing to wish for, as if Warhorse couldn’t do it themselves with a game if they wanted to).

I’ll note here that the very first thing on the Kickstarter page beneath the intro video is this:

Realistic single-player RPG set in the medieval Europe. Open-world sandbox with period accurate melee combat. Dungeons & no Dragons.

Later in the topic, you compared SP games to playing Solitaire and hinted you wouldn’t even give this game a chance as far as playing it yourself, simply because it’s not actually an MMO.

I hope you can see how or why some people might take a bit of offense at the suggestion a SP is tantamount to playing cards by yourself, when in reality it’s nothing of the sort. I also hope you understand that it comes off that by mentioning giving the game to your guy, the fact it’s not an MMO is an instant turn-off at least as far as your own interest in playing it goes.

Personally, I don’t think that’s being entirely fair to the people making the game. You obviously saw something that interested you enough to go in at a higher pledging tier, so I’d think once the game releases you ought to at least give yourself the chance to personally like it or not by playing it (beyond the alpha/beta stages).

I’ve made it clear here in the past I’m not much of an MMO person. A large part of that is because I don’t always have time to devote 100% of my attention to a video game. If I’m doing anything MP, I can’t just pause the game and set the controller down (or leave the CPU) in the middle of a mission because I need to step away from the game, or because there’s a distraction, or something else that comes up. I’d probably either have to drop out or lag behind, and either way it affects the others I was trying to play with. I just multitask a lot, so being able to play a game at my own pace is more my preference.

I tried the Elder Scrolls Online beta and it did nothing for me. I am enjoying some of the matchmaking in Destiny, but at least as far as the story mode goes it could still be completed solo. I actually found that a bit more of a challenge when it’s obvious the game is designed to benefit more from having a fireteam instead of not. Still, I was able to put a few hours into some random strike missions with two other people last night and I think we had a good time. I can’t frequently do that, though.

Anyway, if there’s an “issue” I have with the pro-MP/MMO side as far as KCD is concerned, it’s probably more in how they express their desire and how they react to being told this is the way it is. Put aside the segment of gamers who, on sight, won’t even give a game a chance if it’s SP (or MP/MMO, on the flipside). Nobody can do anything about those two groups because their minds are closed.

If someone says “Well, this looks great but I really wish it had a MP element. Is that possible?” and the answer is a clear “Sorry, no. This is the vision we have and this is the game we’re making. MP MIGHT be a thing later on down the line, but not right now,” then that should be the end of it. For some, they’ve pushed in spite of that general answer, as if they had the right to dictate to Warhorse how they should make their game just to please someone’s preferences.

Then versions of that repeat and the people who were in on this project as a SP game from the start get frustrated because it seems people who aren’t clear on the concept keep coming in making requests or demands about something for which the answer has already been given, and repeated, and repeated again. Patience with it thins, especially when new topics are made and people haven’t taken a few minutes to see if it’s already been brought up before, etc.

So, yeah. Sometimes people get chippy about it. That doesn’t mean they hate “the other side.” It just means they’ve lost patience with the subject at the time.

As it stands now, the way Warhorse is making this game, I just don’t really see how a MP element would truly make it any better. It’s not a game where you’re going to take up a random commoner in the world and run around doing a bunch of grinding - and face it, grinding is a strong element of a lot of MMOs. Henry himself is specifically defined with a backstory and a direction to go in, but with various options players will have to determine how that’s done.

Even something like allowing a friend to drop in and out as some sort of temporary companion doesn’t really work because there’s nothing I can see to it that really means anything for the second player in terms of things sticking. They won’t BE Henry, so what do they do? Maybe help in a fight or two? Travel with Henry from one village to the next and go about their merry ways afterward? There’s nothing in it that really impacts things, and we obviously can’t have multiple Henrys running around in the same world doing the same things.

I think that’s why there’s a certain stubbornness to the “No on KCD as an MMO” crowd. When you get down to it, it’s also the fact people pledged on the basis of this being a SP game, holding to the hope of it being a damned good SP game, and wanting to see that vision bear out.

There’s more than enough room in the gaming world for something like Star Citizen, which is on a massively broad MMO scale, and a game like KCD that’s focused entirely on a SP experience. There’s also no reason SP and MP/MMO fans can’t coexist without acting like what they wish or want a game to be is what it should be, just to suit their gaming preference.


Wow some logical reasoning here.
I am truly impressed and could´nt have said it better!
Note: I was here since quite the beginning and Flashfire is not exaggerating with his(eeeh…or her? ^^’) statement.
To be fair some people got pretty rough sometimes when it came to the MP topic, but just look at it from their perspective: you maybe asked this question for MP just once, but they heard this question dozens of times (ok maybe this was exaggerated, but I hope you got my point) so yeah they are a little annoyed by this MP thingy and so they acted more aggressive than they would normally do.
Please have a bit understanding for us SP-fans, we don´t want to fight (at least I hope so)
Oh and yeah nobody is prohibiting you to wish a MMO from warhorse after KC: D is finished, but consider two things: first thing is that this is the KC: D forum, and the topics should (for the most part) be related to this game and not to future games of WH (yeah I know there are several topics related to other games but… well I don´t see the point of that either) and second thing is that there is still a pretty big amount of time till KC: D is finished, so your wishes are far far away from today and discussing them now, while they work on their first title won´t bring you any further.
Maybe one could open a new Category for just future projects or such where a topic for MP or MMO things would be much more meaningful and less disturbed by people who don´t want these things…but that´s just an idea :slight_smile:

Just by putting “multiplayer” in the search I can find at least 10 threads requesting the game having multiplayer/coop or something like this and I know that I have seen few threads with this question, that haven’t shown in the search. So dozen is not exaggeration, it is fairly accurate statement :smile:

Request for multipleayer tournament mode:

And bonus: request to contain all mutiplayer threads in separate category:

The people here don’t hate multiplayer, they hate (like people anywhere in world) questions that are asked again and again and can be answered just by reading game description.

On the topic why I don’t want this game to be mutiplayer: I can’t enjoy multiplayer games for two reasons @Flashfire mentioned one of them, the time demands of multiplayer games are lot harsher than for singleplayer and you can “ruin” the game for other people by not beeing able to play sometimes or beeing in for longer sessions. The second reason is technical, my internet connection isn’t entirely reliable and multiplayer games are by definition always online games. I wan’t games I can play without internet connection.

Another reason I usually avoid a lot of MP stuff is when you have skirmishes, deathmatches, capture the flag stuff and people play the maps to the point they become experts on every square inch of the thing, there’s pretty much no chance whatsoever for a casual MP person to not get destroyed over and over again. You might learn not to make certain mistakes again, but I can’t see you not being at a clear disadvantage against the people with more experience, better gear and so on.

When I started Destiny’s Crucible MP arena, which unlocks at level 5, I figured I’d be getting matched up with people of a similar level. Nope. Right away, I saw some from level 15-20. While things are balanced out a bit by having certain perks and advantages disabled, you’re still screwed when your class tree isn’t as built up as someone else’s. It leaves you less powerful and much weaker in comparison.

Yes, I have become a bit better as I’ve played more, but I started out lucky to get three or four kills by the time I’d already died well over a dozen times. Now that I’ve reached level 20 that ratio is getting closer to 1:1 but you can still be one-shotted enough to break any defenses you have before you even have a chance to counter.

I don’t know how that compares to other MP stuff, but the people who spend all day and night getting to know the ins and outs of every map they play will always have a clear advantage over someone who doesn’t have the time to do that. The amount of fun someone can get out of a game should not be so heavily impacted by how much time you can spend on it each day.

All that said, I won’t deny there’s a nice sense of accomplishment when you team up with others and defeat or win something.

In addition to the reasons Flashfire and masozrava​palma already stated (well except for the internet connection) I just don´t get the satisfaction from leveling and grinding that is so important for this genre. I want a good story combined with charming characters and nice gameplay and well…if a MMO or co-op game has a good story…it ends when you are at max. level and that´s when most of MMO´s begin to be interesting for most of players.
Plus I don´t like most of the fighting systems.

So although teamwork is nice i´m still waiting for a MMO that could fulfill my requirements (maybe they are simply too high i don´t know ^^’)

The question about multiplayer is like a question about casual. It’s like you’re trying to target a business that has a well-known audience (and not a small one).

The niche here presented by Warhorse Studios is a real singleplayer RPG without fantasy. It’s just like spacesims and space-games in general, which have been ignored by all the big publishers. That’s why Chris Roberts and his Star Citizen project pulled off: to show that lots of people are interested in a so-called niche, that no publisher, no market researcher would think of asking about.

That said: MMO has an audience and there are more games out there than I could count with my hands and feets. The only difference: the games’ title. There’s no long-lasting impact to the game world as you progress in the MMO. They only add new content to prolong the life of a game. That also means: no content creator outside of the MMO company can implement something for everyone to see in the MMO world. It’s not like a Minecraft server, it’s not like a singleplayer game, it’s not like a modder’s sandbox. Mafia 1 is customizable, The Elder Scrolls is customizable, Grand Theft Auto is customizable… all those games are primarily singleplayer games. While some games have multiplayer, the purpose of these games is to tell an interesting story. MMOs fail to deliver that.

I understand MMO players to have everything MMOed (is that even a word?), no matter which theme it includes. The question I have: Do we need more MMOs with changed assets but same features? I’ve been playing lots of the free MMOs and I like the ingame community aspects of some games. But I barely remember anything from the games’ stories or the people I’ve played with.

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Flash, first, thank you for a friendly response.

I didn’t get here through Kickstarter. I didn’t even realize they HAD a kickstarter page until after I backed them through their main site. I found them on Steam and was directed to their webpage. And the web page simply doesn’t not make this clear. Perhaps the vets here might take this into consideration? Personally, I think it needs to be in a FAQ that is mandatory reading BEFORE access to these forums is granted (even if you do back).

[quote=“Flashfire, post:21, topic:9904”]
Later in the topic, you compared SP games to playing Solitaire and hinted you wouldn’t even give this game a chance as far as playing it yourself, simply because it’s not actually an MMO.[/quote]

That is not an accurate interpretation. I said that if I wanted solo play, I’d go play Solitaire. That is not the same as saying “this game is like solitaire”; it’s merely emphasizing my personal preference for multiplayer. But this is also a good example of people taking their interpretation as what was intended, rather than asking.

It is an instant turn off for me. Why should I lie? My point was that I’d continue to support it and let my guy enjoy it (who will, I’m sure) while I hope for the day when they make something I will like. Would you rather I withdraw support and not give Warhorse another, likely dedicated player and supporter? Really? I mean, sure, I could do that, but perhaps you can see how that being set forth sounds a lot like “GTFO”.

Yes, yes I did. Realism. I don’t think you understand how many MMO players have been begging for realism and for how long. Graphics alone do not make realism. If that were the case, there are any number of MMOs I could enjoy. As I said, I arrived via Steam to the web site. In fact, the “recommended for you” Steam results were for MMOs… so it is probably Steam’s fault that I would up here at all, let alone thinking that this was an MMO.

But you genuinely have no idea how excited I was to think that FINALLY… someone was going to make a realistic MMO. And you might imagine my disappointment upon discovery of just how wrong that thought was.

Heh. Neither do I. My days of hours upon hours of play are long gone. I work ridiculous hours and am involved in a number of professional and personal pursuits that make gaming of ANY sort a luxury. But when I do game, I like doing so with others. I get that multitasking is today’s status quo (even as I “don’t get” how multitasking between a game and a movie and several web sites can actually be enjoyable)… it’s just not my thing.

We agree that ESO was a woeful disappointment.

You do remember we’re talking about humans, right? (grin) Also, lobbying in the face of denial is something the game industry has conditioned its consumers to do… so in an candor, expecting that NOT to happen all of a sudden is, I think, a bit unrealistic. If that’s really what Warhorse would prefer, then they should incorporate it as a ruleset on these forums and moderate viciously in relation to it. Because, frankly, it’s only going to get more intense the closer they get to release otherwise (something I’ll bet you know from previous experience, eh?).

This is good discussion, regardless. Thanks for that.

This reminds me more and more of Star Citizen… except that I feel like the MMO crowd could be winning in Star Citizen. You got to admit that they sure know to play the community better, since they’re used to spending lots of time on the net as well as in arguments.

It also reminds me of something else, but there’s a separate thread of that and I won’t start it in here.

Exactly. And what happened then was that some people realized:
-It’s a small community yet
-It got multiplayer and some obscure persistent universe, which sure needs to be a disguise for MMO
-He’s selling ships pre-alpha, so he must at some point later include the business model to sell items to pertain the suspected MMO, because there’s no subscription financing

So they “invested” there by buying ships. Lots of them. In the prospect that they’d be far better off later when the MMO goes big, so that their group/team whatever “wins”. Some invested in a literal sense because they expect the prices to double or even triple (or even more) when the game goes live. There was a surge of discussions about why economy must be “real” and why it needs to have “money sinks” and whatnot bullshit to keep it “stable” or “controllable”.

Which is great at first glance, because they bring the game forward. But at what price?

Every time Roberts or one of his team makes the slightest hint that this might not actually become a MMO there’s a huge outrage (1:10 NPC ratio anyone?).
Everytime a ship’s statistics gets altered or seem to be gross different from the expectation (a luxury cruiser featuring CCIW, any stat change) they write on the forum, twitter, blogs and whatnot until it gets changed. Because they’re not into roleplaying. They’re into “winning” the game. Or making plain simple old-fashioned money.

This is absolutely not what was the prospect of the game in the beginning.

It was advertised as Privateer or Freelancer with better tech and with more possibilities. It was planned to be absolutely freely moddable, including private servers, offline play and everything.

And if you actually bothered to play Privateer (or maybe even were around at that time and played it) you immediately got the point. You absolutely and 100% knew what he meant with “realistic” economy and “multiplayer” in a persistent universe - because that’s all what Privateer was lacking in.
And Privateer did lack only this. It was apart from the obvious technical limitations of the time (and even then it excelled) an outstanding game. It is even today - there is NO game I could name offhand that offered that atmosphere as Privateer did (and I’ve seen a lot. Granted, I didn’t play everything, but still).

Unfortunately Roberts takes the approach of listening to the community very serious. I guess he got this idea looking at the Wing Commander CIC (which is so obvious as he hired one of the more active guys from that site as his community manager). But the crowd there is light years apart from the MMO crowd. The CIC is civilized space, people don’t spam posts and actually there are not many around and most refrain to reading (as long as they can’t add anything constructive).

So as a result things get changed due to “community pressure” - and to the worse.
Just one example: the flight direction of the Banu Merchantman was reversed because of the outcry in the community, Roberts admitted at Gamescon 2014. Many original backers were disappointed, because it was a step backwards to conventional design. It would have been great to have an unconventional design for an alien ship that offers a lot of role playing, but the “competitive crew” (which almost equals the MMO crowd) found it to be not “aggressive and combat-ready” enough - they didn’t care for the role playing.

So, I can absolutely understand why people are not interested in MMOs. Because they can’t deliver this. They do deliver something else, but as it is, I’m not interested in this and I never could be. Simply because I don’t have the time.

Sounds like that, with the mention of it being ground in with MMOs, is a goof on Steam’s part and no surprise why it led to some confusion. And, in double-checking the main homepage for the game here, it mentions first-person RPG but does not specifically say it’s single-player. So, that’s a good point.

That may be, and that’s well and good, but even with the explanation it still gives me the impression of seeing SP games as nothing more than playing by yourself. In the most literal sense it’s true, but I take it as undervaluing the story element present, especially when it’s done exceptionally well.

No, of course not. Another interested player is another sale in the end, whether it’s you or your “other half.” I just have trouble grasping the POV that just because a game is SP (or just because it’s MP/MMO) it’s automatically a “not interested” scenario. You mention many MMO players begging for more realism for a long time, but it makes me wonder if the MMO style of play itself is unrealistic by default, and if it can ever truly BE realistic considering the grinding aspect that goes into them and the sense that you’re never really finished with it because there’s always something else to get to improve your build.

I have no idea what would make an MMO more realistic overall, but I suppose a start could be a world like this that puts people in the role of knights, commoners and so on while limiting them to specific ways they can play. In other words, no casting magic, no summoning/riding dragons, etc. If that sort of thing is what drew you in with Steam seeming to label it an MMO, that really does explain a whole lot.

Where I’m coming from on that is more in the sense of taking an occasionally brief break, or needing to answer a phone call, have a snack, etc. I guess you could drop out of the MMO as a way of comparing and jump back in afterward, but for me it’s just simpler to pause the game during some part of it and come back 10-15 minutes later or whatever the case may be. I’m not trying to coordinate with others to play at certain times, and it also gives me all the freedom I need to play whatever game I’m into the way I want. I also don’t feel like I HAVE to spend specific amounts of time during a certain period of interest for the game itself, in the sense of possibly missing the window where it’s got the most people all playing it. No MP game is fun when you go in to join up with others and a place is basically empty.

Sometimes I think there’s a bit of Spock in me.

Probably not necessary, though the idea of a FAQ for some of the most commonly repeated questions/demands/etc. might not hurt.

There was a user who did this based on various bits of info that was compiled back in February, however:

(That first-person vs. third-person view part was a big source of contention among some users back then, but it’s since died down)

(It also does mention that Henry will have a place to live, so that bit won’t be necessary as a stretch goal)

Also, for @YuusouAmazing, @TobiTobsen or anyone else with the power to do it, can we get the title of this thread changed to something more appropriate since it’s popped back up again for further discussion? Thanks.

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Oh no, please don´t! it would be indeed a loss of someone capable of reasonable debating. :slight_smile: But I think it would have been completly rational to say that you withdraw after you recognized that the game is not what you expected it to be.

Well i think it is indeed it is the question if it´s your thing or not. Usually i´m absolutely not a multitaking guy, but when it comes to gaming i just do it, and i think it is quite enjoyable plus there might be some occasions out of the sudden when gaming and i want the freedom to react on them without influencing my group . But on the other site it is totally reasonable to think it´s better to just conentrate on the game, espacially in your case, when it´s kind of a luxurious activity, so no problem with that.

And for the last part…oh don´t mind Flashfire already stated that

And now something Off-Topic: I also want to thank everyone for a good, reasonable discussion and for polite statements (at least in most cases, but exceptions confirm the rule… or somethin like that). I was mod in the german TES V Skyrim forum, which grew quite large in the end, so i´m used to other ways of behaviours. Just thanks for that :slight_smile:

As commonly designed, yes; that doesn’t mean, however, that other designs aren’t possible. That’s really the issue for MMOs today - just as they were slow and reluctant to change their revenue models (even when it is now clearly demonstrated they can make MUCH more by doing so), they are equally loathe to give players a truly new mechanical play experience.

The combat style as presented in KCD is exactly what I’ve been longing for… it would make PvP interesting and relevant again. It would also be far more realistic than anything an MMO currently offers. And it IS possible in an MMO, but it would require truly innovative thinking (i.e., being willing to deconstruct today’s methods and reconstitute them). Instead, most of the new MMOs are going precisely the opposite direction with FPS style combat. It’s depressing.

The “Red Queen Dilemma” of MMOs (i.e., infinite progression against an infinite goal) is part of the monthly subscription model legacy and gated progression mechanics. It is entirely possible to have an MMO world in which “progress” is based upon long-scale time rather than “this level cap” or “that faction status”, etc. But the genre is marbled with insecurities about its own longevity in the face of console, standalone, and mobile offerings… so they cling to what they know and hope that it’s enough (it isn’t).

ANYWAY… perhaps all the above will help express why the notion that this might be an MMO in the making was so amazing for me. And, frankly, why I hope they will eventually get around to it. From what I can see, they have the right perspective on what it would take to make a truly innovative one; since no one else in the MMO genre seems to have this perspective, that makes them interesting to me… even knowing that their first offering is going to be standalone.

Thanks for the link to the AMA, will go check that out now.

I much better understand where you’re coming from on this aspect of things, now.

There’s also a bit more that was pulled in as other comments to that thread.